Economy 7 smart meter advice

sebtomato

Deleted_User said:

Feel free to rely on your intuition rather than photographic evidence though - I’m not sure why you’re trying to turn this into an argument!

Because you are advising people of the wrong solution. This forum is all about advice, right?

In the industry and on various official documents (including government ones), it says that people on economy 7 relying on specific circuits to be switched during off peak hours should have a 5 pole/terminal meters. Two engineers from EDF told me the same (face to face), I have a 5 pole smart meter installed now. Two BG engineers said the same to my neighbour (they didn't have access to those types of meters).

The auxiliary port you are talking about seems to be... the fifth terminal (at least for the latest meters).

Here is another link: https://www.smartme.co.uk/load-control.html

"Smart meters with 5 terminals have an auxiliary load control switch (ALCS) within the meter itself which can be used to switch a second electrical circuit off and on"

And again, the link provided before, talking about the auxiliary port: https://forum.ovoenergy.com/smart-meters-136/getting-a-smets2-smart-meter-with-storage-heaters-underfloor-heating-or-other-5th-port-appliances-8545

So not, it's not just my "intuition". Your username may be SparkyGrad, and you may have "Electricity industry background", but I don't think you are correct in this case.

If people have economy 7 and need to have a smart meter installed, they probably need a 5 pole terminal smart meter...

sebtomato

[Deleted User] said:

Deleted_User said:

Feel free to rely on your intuition rather than photographic evidence though - I’m not sure why you’re trying to turn this into an argument!

Indeed, it is always wise to pick one’s fights carefully. Your username alone suggests that you might know the difference between amps and volts!

Best argument ever. You didn't note also his signature, which I guess should make him correct even more, right?

[Deleted User]

Seb, you’re still talking nonsense.

Even the links you quote say “smart meters with five terminals” - why would they bother to specify this if there was no other option.

Would you care to comment on the photograph which shows an installation that you continue to insist is impossible?

Fitting a five terminal smart meter for E7 would mean you don’t need an external contactor, because they have the ACLS as you note.

Fitting a four pole meter with an external contactor will also work. It works in many people’s houses at this very moment.

Please stop trying to tell people that one possibility is the only possibility.

sebtomato

[Deleted User] said:

Seb, you’re still talking nonsense.

Even the links you quote say “smart meters with five terminals” - why would they bother to specify this if there was no other option.

What?? yes, the links I have provided say that economy 7 customers need a five terminal meter, as the fifth terminal is the auxiliary terminal to activate an off peak circuit.

That's what I have been saying for a while. Not sure why there is confusion. I am done now, I think you are just confused or trolling.

[Deleted User]

sebtomato said:

Deleted_User said:

Seb, you’re still talking nonsense.

Even the links you quote say “smart meters with five terminals” - why would they bother to specify this if there was no other option.

What?? yes, the links I have provided say that economy 7 customers need a five terminal meter, as the fifth terminal is the auxiliary terminal to activate an off peak circuit.

That's what I have been saying for a while. Not sure why there is confusion. I am done now, I think you are just confused or trolling.

And again - you insist on saying need - which is entirely incorrect.

How are you incapable of understanding the difference between must have and can have?

If someone is trolling here, it is not me.

I will say it again for clarity and to avoid other posters getting misled. E7 can be done with a five terminal meter alone or a four terminal meter with external contactor.

Suppliers might choose to fit one, other, or both of these methods. This is their choice and not a technical requirement.

QrizB

sebtomato said:

Deleted_User said:

Seb, you’re still talking nonsense.

Even the links you quote say “smart meters with five terminals” - why would they bother to specify this if there was no other option.

What?? yes, the links I have provided say that economy 7 customers need a five terminal meter, as the fifth terminal is the auxiliary terminal to activate an off peak circuit.

That's what I have been saying for a while. Not sure why there is confusion. I am done now, I think you are just confused or trolling.

There are two photos (admittedly of the same board) in this thread showing an E7 smart meter installation with a four-terminal meter.

I can't understand why you are so set on denying this.

Here's a different installation, also using a 4-terminal meter for E7:

Here's an MSE thread from someone with a four-port smart meter and E7:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6203381/storage-heaters-immersion-tank-but-no-economy-7
And a photo of his board:

sebtomato

QrizB said:

sebtomato said:

Deleted_User said:

Seb, you’re still talking nonsense.

Even the links you quote say “smart meters with five terminals” - why would they bother to specify this if there was no other option.

What?? yes, the links I have provided say that economy 7 customers need a five terminal meter, as the fifth terminal is the auxiliary terminal to activate an off peak circuit.

That's what I have been saying for a while. Not sure why there is confusion. I am done now, I think you are just confused or trolling.

There are two photos (admittedly of the same board) in this thread showing an E7 smart meter installation with a four-terminal meter.

I can't understand why you are so set on denying this.

Here's a different installation, also using a 4-terminal meter for E7:

Here's an MSE thread from someone with a four-port smart meter and E7:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6203381/storage-heaters-immersion-tank-but-no-economy-7
And a photo of his board:

Nice. So you have 3 pictures showing it can be done, while I am linking to various document stating what is the normal/standard way of doing it.

I am sure I can use my car as a horse carriage too.

Even if it can technically be done, it doesn't mean technicians from BG or EDF will do it, so they will typically install 5 terminal smart meters.

[Deleted User]

So despite several posts claiming that it cannot be done and arguing with anyone who suggests it, your argument has now become “of course it can be done but some people are choosing not to” - something that none of us disagreed with.

SAC2334

QrizB said:

stevekm1982 said:

EssexHebridean said:

Presumably the meter that BG have fitted isn't capable of supporting E7? 

No I don’t believe so.

All smart meters are capable of supporting E7, it's a mandatory part of the spec.

The problem seems to lie with BG's back-end.

Any idea whether British Gas has managed to rectify this for others? 

With a lot of effort, yes.

See this thread from January:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6328451/help-needed-with-woefully-negligent-british-gas

Extremely odd why BG can t manage Eco 7 on smart meters . They were fine with the old dumb meters .

Before I retired in 2017 they had brought out a special tariff which gave the occupier free electric on either Saturday or Sunday for 8 hours  and many customers took up the offer and made it work by doing all the washing and drying on one day . It was only open to smart meters . That is every bit as complex to work as a 2 rate Eco 7 meter . This was when BG operated all their smart meters independantly of Capitas DCC  which they were doing for years since 2012 successfully .
They have some unknown reason because they certainly can manage it. 

I have my own theory of why the then  biggest supplier does not want to get to grips with all the many Eco 7 users have been paying the wrong amount because of the huge numbers of people who were getting day and night transposed . I had many  of them all the time on BG Eco 7 on dumb meters. Every time I corrected it they sent out massive catch up bills which they then reversed after customer complaints.

Phones4Chris

sebtomato said:

Deleted_User said:

Many 4-pole smart meters have an auxiliary connection to drive an external contactor - you don’t need to 5-pole meter to have circuits which are only live at off-peak times.

Are you sure? It's not what the various technicians have told me or my neighbour.

If any normal smart meter can activate an off peak circuit via "an auxiliary connection", why the need for a 5 pole model then?

According to the technicians, the 5th pole IS the connection to drive an external contactor, and that's surely the way mine was wired.

I'm just catching up on some smart meter issues since my last visit months ago.
@sebtomato I'm afraid you are wrong/have mis-understood. If it's a proper 5 pole/terminal# smart meter that takes "a fat wire" (as per the link you posted) then there is no need for an external contactor - that's why 5 pole meters exist, it saves equipment (and space).
I have a proper 5 pole meter installed by EDF for my storage heater consumer unit and NO external contactor.
4 pole meters have a low current auxiliary contact to drive a contactor for the high current loads of heating etc.

Perhaps you could provide a photo of the way yours is wired, I'm curious.

Talking of EDf, you say " I can also see on the EDF website (usage section) a spike of usage when off peak hours come on".
I don't seem to have this. Is this in the online "My Account" you log-in with your computer? Which menu option(s) do you select?
Can you post any screen-grabs?