Economy 7 smart meter advice

EssexHebridean

QrizB said:

stevekm1982 said:

EssexHebridean said:

Presumably the meter that BG have fitted isn't capable of supporting E7? 

No I don’t believe so.

All smart meters are capable of supporting E7, it's a mandatory part of the spec.

The problem seems to lie with BG's back-end.

When this was discussed before the advice given to someone awaiting a SM install for E7 was to ensure that they got a 5-terminal meter, and to check with the operative BEFORE allowing him to fit it that this was what he was fitting - so are we now saying that they are all 5-terminal it's just a single rate supply will only connect to 4 of them? I'll apologise now for potentially both sounding clueless (on this, I am!) and for also very probably over-simplifying (see the aformentioned clueless bit) but allowing that we're also likely to go the SM route before long I'd like to be as well informed as possible ahead of time! 

@Swipe Surely one of the issues is that it is incredibly difficult to check that the E7 circuits are working correctly at the time of day that an install is likely to take place?  

Swipe

EssexHebridean said:

QrizB said:

stevekm1982 said:

EssexHebridean said:

Presumably the meter that BG have fitted isn't capable of supporting E7? 

No I don’t believe so.

All smart meters are capable of supporting E7, it's a mandatory part of the spec.

The problem seems to lie with BG's back-end.

When this was discussed before the advice given to someone awaiting a SM install for E7 was to ensure that they got a 5-terminal meter, and to check with the operative BEFORE allowing him to fit it that this was what he was fitting - so are we now saying that they are all 5-terminal it's just a single rate supply will only connect to 4 of them? I'll apologise now for potentially both sounding clueless (on this, I am!) and for also very probably over-simplifying (see the aformentioned clueless bit) but allowing that we're also likely to go the SM route before long I'd like to be as well informed as possible ahead of time! 

@Swipe Surely one of the issues is that it is incredibly difficult to check that the E7 circuits are working correctly at the time of day that an install is likely to take place?  

Yes, my main concern was that the storage heaters would be live during the day so we switched one on to make sure it wasn't. The chances are if they are not, then the 5th terminal is wired correctly. Then it just was a case of waiting up that night and confirming the exact switch over time and to make sure that they all came on at that point.

QrizB

EssexHebridean said:

QrizB said:

stevekm1982 said:

EssexHebridean said:

Presumably the meter that BG have fitted isn't capable of supporting E7? 

No I don’t believe so.

All smart meters are capable of supporting E7, it's a mandatory part of the spec.

The problem seems to lie with BG's back-end.

When this was discussed before the advice given to someone awaiting a SM install for E7 was to ensure that they got a 5-terminal meter, and to check with the operative BEFORE allowing him to fit it that this was what he was fitting - so are we now saying that they are all 5-terminal it's just a single rate supply will only connect to 4 of them?

No, I'm not saying that.

All smart meters can support four time-of-use registers. This lets them bill separately for E7, E10 and various other time-of-use tariffs. How you then switch E7-only circuits will vary.

• Five-terminal smart meters will let you switch a dedicsted E7 consumer unit directly.
• Four-terminal smart meters include an auxiliary contact that can be used to swith an external E7 contactor, in much the same way that an external timeswitch would switch a contactor with a traditional E7 meter.

Here's a photo from this thread on the OVO forums that shows the auxiliary contact on a 4-port smart meter (the thin wires on the far right of the meter) used to switch an external contactor (the EON-branded Proteus EHC1 below):

sebtomato

stevekm1982 said:

Earlier in the year British Gas contacted me about moving to a smart meter, which I agreed to. I have since discovered when reviewing my bill that by doing this they have removed me from an economy 7 meter, which was not mentioned at the time. I have an electric car through work and have always charged my car overnight (as well as run other appliances) and noticed that I have been charged the standard variable tariff 24/7. I have tried reaching out to British Gas by their call centre (which is closed) and their WhatsApp function (who said to contact the call centre) with no luck.

Before I take this further I just wanted to check whether others have had similar experiences and whether they have rectified it? And also whether it’s worth pursuing and switching back to economy 7 if possible? As I note from other posts that  the tariffs may not be as beneficial now. 

My neighbour (block of flat) is with British Gas, and when she asked for a smart meter to be installed, they couldn't do it, twice. All flats in our block have economy 7 and need a five pole smart meter (basically, the smart meter needs to activate an off peak circuit in the flat during off peak hours, and needs an extra pole for that to power a contactor/relay).

I am with EDF, and EDF could install a five pole smart meter 6 months ago, but BG don't seem to have those available. The only option for her is to move back to EDF, assuming they will let her (given the current context).

I know my EDF meter is working fine and activating the off peak circuit during off peak hours, since I would have no hot water otherwise. I can also see on the EDF website (usage section) a spike of usage when off peak hours come on (23:30 currently, in London), when the hot water cylinder is on.

In our flats, a standard meter wouldn't work, since underfloor heating and off peak water heating would never be powered on (or would be powered on all the time, if the technician had also connected the contactor/relay to a live feed).

It's not just a tariff issue (what rate applies when) in some cases.

[Deleted User]

sebtomato said:

stevekm1982 said:

Earlier in the year British Gas contacted me about moving to a smart meter, which I agreed to. I have since discovered when reviewing my bill that by doing this they have removed me from an economy 7 meter, which was not mentioned at the time. I have an electric car through work and have always charged my car overnight (as well as run other appliances) and noticed that I have been charged the standard variable tariff 24/7. I have tried reaching out to British Gas by their call centre (which is closed) and their WhatsApp function (who said to contact the call centre) with no luck.

Before I take this further I just wanted to check whether others have had similar experiences and whether they have rectified it? And also whether it’s worth pursuing and switching back to economy 7 if possible? As I note from other posts that  the tariffs may not be as beneficial now. 

My neighbour (block of flat) is with British Gas, and when she asked for a smart meter to be installed, they couldn't do it, twice. All flats in our block have economy 7 and need a five pole smart meter (basically, the smart meter needs to activate an off peak circuit in the flat during off peak hours, and needs an extra pole for that to power a contactor/relay).

I am with EDF, and EDF could install a five pole smart meter 6 months ago, but BG don't seem to have those available. The only option for her is to move back to EDF, assuming they will let her (given the current context).

I know my EDF meter is working fine and activating the off peak circuit during off peak hours, since I would have no hot water otherwise. I can also see on the EDF website (usage section) a spike of usage when off peak hours come on (23:30 currently, in London), when the hot water cylinder is on.

In our flats, a standard meter wouldn't work, since underfloor heating and off peak water heating would never be powered on (or would be powered on all the time, if the technician had also connected the contactor/relay to a live feed).

It's not just a tariff issue (what rate applies when) in some cases.

Many 4-pole smart meters have an auxiliary connection to drive an external contactor - you don’t need to 5-pole meter to have circuits which are only live at off-peak times.

sebtomato

[Deleted User] said:

Many 4-pole smart meters have an auxiliary connection to drive an external contactor - you don’t need to 5-pole meter to have circuits which are only live at off-peak times.

Are you sure? It's not what the various technicians have told me or my neighbour.

If any normal smart meter can activate an off peak circuit via "an auxiliary connection", why the need for a 5 pole model then?

According to the technicians, the 5th pole IS the connection to drive an external contactor, and that's surely the way mine was wired.

[Deleted User]

sebtomato said:

Deleted_User said:

Many 4-pole smart meters have an auxiliary connection to drive an external contactor - you don’t need to 5-pole meter to have circuits which are only live at off-peak times.

Are you sure? It's not what the various technicians have told me or my neighbour.

If any normal smart meter can activate an off peak circuit via "an auxiliary connection", why the need for a 5 pole model then?

According to the technicians, the 5th pole IS the connection to drive an external contactor, and that's surely the way mine was wired.

The fifth pole is the output from an internal contactor, that’s why it takes a ‘fat’ wire like all the other ones.

The auxiliary output would be connected to a much smaller wire and would need an external relay to do the switching.

There is an example: a 4-pole meter in the top right with external E7 contactor (with the E.ON logo) below it.  The supply cable leaving the contactor and going out of the top of the photograph would only be live at off peak times.  It’s controlled from the auxiliary output of the meter, which is the smaller connection to the right hand side of the normal 4 terminals.

With a 5 pole meter, the two boxes are combined.  Either way works.

sebtomato

Deleted_User said:

sebtomato said:

Deleted_User said:

Many 4-pole smart meters have an auxiliary connection to drive an external contactor - you don’t need to 5-pole meter to have circuits which are only live at off-peak times.

Are you sure? It's not what the various technicians have told me or my neighbour.

If any normal smart meter can activate an off peak circuit via "an auxiliary connection", why the need for a 5 pole model then?

According to the technicians, the 5th pole IS the connection to drive an external contactor, and that's surely the way mine was wired.

The fifth pole is the output from an internal contactor, that’s why it takes a ‘fat’ wire like all the other ones.

The auxiliary output would be connected to a much smaller wire and would need an external relay to do the switching.

There is an example: a 4-pole meter in the top right with external E7 contactor (with the E.ON logo) below it.  The supply cable leaving the contactor and going out of the top of the photograph would only be live at off peak times.  It’s controlled from the auxiliary output of the meter, which is the smaller connection to the right hand side of the normal 4 terminals.

With a 5 pole meter, the two boxes are combined.  Either way works.

Pretty sure my fifth pole is connected to an external contactor/box.

Having a five pole/terminal smart meter seems standard for off peak circuits.

https://forum.ovoenergy.com/smart-meters-136/getting-a-smets2-smart-meter-with-storage-heaters-underfloor-heating-or-other-5th-port-appliances-8545

[Deleted User]

Having a five pole meter is one way of enabling off-peak only circuits. It is not the only way, nor is it necessarily the standard way (as there were many old pre-digital meters with external switches).

Feel free to rely on your intuition rather than photographic evidence though - I’m not sure why you’re trying to turn this into an argument!

[Deleted User]

Deleted_User said:

Having a five pole meter is one way of enabling off-peak only circuits. It is not the only way, nor is it necessarily the standard way (as there were many old pre-digital meters with external switches).

Feel free to rely on your intuition rather than photographic evidence though - I’m not sure why you’re trying to turn this into an argument!

Indeed, it is always wise to pick one’s fights carefully. Your username alone suggests that you might know the difference between amps and volts!