How to Tell if the Roofer is Overcharging Me?

Tucosalamanca

HappyScotsman said:

I truly understand how materials can be more expensive than I could pick up from the internet - I can wait a few days for delivery, he can't. He's not got a yard, he's working out of a van and pays the merchant who is holding stock. He'll have a mark up to cover his time and transport. I get it.

My estimate of materials could be way out but as a guess, code 6 lead flashing around two dormers, less than a roll of breathable membrane, bucket of nails. I'll be generous and say 40m2 of slated roof, but most tiles were reused. Any new tiles put on look identical, so they were reclaimed rather than new. Screwing up my eyes, I can't see more than a few £k in materials.

Waste was brought down in bags, no skip was needed, and there weren't any deliveries by third parties. Two men, 5 days on site maximum. Even allowing for a good profit, insurance, buying and running a van and knowing roofers can't work 5 days a week throughout a year, it still feels like I'm being taken for a mug.

Back of a stamp calculations.
1,000kg lead - approx £3,000 (this would also generate 1,000kg scrap)
Roll of Roofshield - £150
Assume 40sqm slates, reclaimed will cost same or even more.
800 slates @ £6 (good quality Welsh) £4,800
200m 25 x 50 batten @ £1.50pm £300
Slate fixings (copper nails) £50
Other fixings and sundries £100
Waste costs £200 (no skip but waste still needs to be disposed of and does cost £££)
Total cost to them, £8,600
Add 20% markup (handling, wastage and profit)
Takes us to £10,320

A good, hard working roofer will want £250 per day
If they're expert Lead workers, they could potentially be charging £400-£500 a day (my go-to Lead guy for complex works charges £500 for six hours on site and he is always busy).
But let's assume they're just roofers.
Two men, five days on site, 10 x £250, £2,500

So, we're up to £12,820, add VAT, £2,564, giving a total of £15,384

There could be more materials as dormers can be very complex. I haven't allowed for any scaffolding.

I guess it's possible they could reach £17k but it does sound like a good earner for them.

Phil4432

FreeBear said:

HappyScotsman said: While all this is going on, I'm periodically asking for a VAT receipt and not getting it. Eventually got a automated payment receipt, but that's no use for a VAT return. Latest is I'll be given a VAT receipt once the entire bill is paid. Ok, minor annoyance since most trades just don't understand VAT.

Most trades understand VAT. If they don't, they'll employ an accountant.

Once the work is complete, I'd be insisting on a proper VAT invoice before paying any outstanding - If they don't play ball, report them to HMRC.

I second that.  Simply insist on a VAT receipt, and breakdown of costs.  If they do not grant your very reasonable requests, that would look very bad on them in court.

You are not saying that you are unwilling to pay, just that you want the above.

HappyScotsman

Tucosalamanca said:

Back of a stamp calculations.
1,000kg lead - approx £3,000 (this would also generate 1,000kg scrap)
Roll of Roofshield - £150
Assume 40sqm slates, reclaimed will cost same or even more.
800 slates @ £6 (good quality Welsh) £4,800
200m 25 x 50 batten @ £1.50pm £300
Slate fixings (copper nails) £50
Other fixings and sundries £100
Waste costs £200 (no skip but waste still needs to be disposed of and does cost £££)
Total cost to them, £8,600
Add 20% markup (handling, wastage and profit)
Takes us to £10,320

A good, hard working roofer will want £250 per day
If they're expert Lead workers, they could potentially be charging £400-£500 a day (my go-to Lead guy for complex works charges £500 for six hours on site and he is always busy).
But let's assume they're just roofers.
Two men, five days on site, 10 x £250, £2,500

So, we're up to £12,820, add VAT, £2,564, giving a total of £15,384

There could be more materials as dormers can be very complex. I haven't allowed for any scaffolding.

I guess it's possible they could reach £17k but it does sound like a good earner for them.

Thanks. 

The original issue identified was the felt flashing at the edges of the dormers had failed. They replaced with lead, so being generous, 12 rolls of Code 6 3m x 300mm for £1800 rather than £3000. Slates, well I just haven't seen evidence of significant changes. If anything, they seem to have reslated a bit of next door in new slates and I suspect reused theirs on mine so they look identical. I'm going to say 50 slates for £300 rather than £4800. Being generous and allowing 30% markup takes materials to £3770, and overpaying at £300 a day adds another £500. Total comes to £6770 exVAT. Even with that generosity, it's under their initial estimate of £9200.

Something feels very wrong. Could the scope of the work I think they did be that far out? I went past the building every few days and never saw any signs of significant stripping and reinstating. No photographic evidence to support their claims either. All this just means I'm going to hold out for a breakdown before making any further payment. 

Tucosalamanca

HappyScotsman said:

Tucosalamanca said:

Back of a stamp calculations.
1,000kg lead - approx £3,000 (this would also generate 1,000kg scrap)
Roll of Roofshield - £150
Assume 40sqm slates, reclaimed will cost same or even more.
800 slates @ £6 (good quality Welsh) £4,800
200m 25 x 50 batten @ £1.50pm £300
Slate fixings (copper nails) £50
Other fixings and sundries £100
Waste costs £200 (no skip but waste still needs to be disposed of and does cost £££)
Total cost to them, £8,600
Add 20% markup (handling, wastage and profit)
Takes us to £10,320

A good, hard working roofer will want £250 per day
If they're expert Lead workers, they could potentially be charging £400-£500 a day (my go-to Lead guy for complex works charges £500 for six hours on site and he is always busy).
But let's assume they're just roofers.
Two men, five days on site, 10 x £250, £2,500

So, we're up to £12,820, add VAT, £2,564, giving a total of £15,384

There could be more materials as dormers can be very complex. I haven't allowed for any scaffolding.

I guess it's possible they could reach £17k but it does sound like a good earner for them.

Thanks. 

The original issue identified was the felt flashing at the edges of the dormers had failed. They replaced with lead, so being generous, 12 rolls of Code 6 3m x 300mm for £1800 rather than £3000. Slates, well I just haven't seen evidence of significant changes. If anything, they seem to have reslated a bit of next door in new slates and I suspect reused theirs on mine so they look identical. I'm going to say 50 slates for £300 rather than £4800. Being generous and allowing 30% markup takes materials to £3770, and overpaying at £300 a day adds another £500. Total comes to £6770 exVAT. Even with that generosity, it's under their initial estimate of £9200.

Something feels very wrong. Could the scope of the work I think they did be that far out? I went past the building every few days and never saw any signs of significant stripping and reinstating. No photographic evidence to support their claims either. All this just means I'm going to hold out for a breakdown before making any further payment. 

I couldn't possibly say. They won't be using 300mm lead more likely 450 or 600mm, but your estimate of 11sqm could well be correct.
Slates, they probably used more than 50, lots could be used in cuts around the dormers, nature of the job means lots of waste.
Nonetheless, it does sound very expensive and scope of works far less than my rough estimate.
You could always attend with another roofer, while the scaffolding is still up.
They'll quickly tell you what has been done. Even if you had to pay them, it might be money well spent?

GDB2222

HappyScotsman said:

Tucosalamanca said:

Back of a stamp calculations.
1,000kg lead - approx £3,000 (this would also generate 1,000kg scrap)
Roll of Roofshield - £150
Assume 40sqm slates, reclaimed will cost same or even more.
800 slates @ £6 (good quality Welsh) £4,800
200m 25 x 50 batten @ £1.50pm £300
Slate fixings (copper nails) £50
Other fixings and sundries £100
Waste costs £200 (no skip but waste still needs to be disposed of and does cost £££)
Total cost to them, £8,600
Add 20% markup (handling, wastage and profit)
Takes us to £10,320

A good, hard working roofer will want £250 per day
If they're expert Lead workers, they could potentially be charging £400-£500 a day (my go-to Lead guy for complex works charges £500 for six hours on site and he is always busy).
But let's assume they're just roofers.
Two men, five days on site, 10 x £250, £2,500

So, we're up to £12,820, add VAT, £2,564, giving a total of £15,384

There could be more materials as dormers can be very complex. I haven't allowed for any scaffolding.

I guess it's possible they could reach £17k but it does sound like a good earner for them.

Thanks. 

The original issue identified was the felt flashing at the edges of the dormers had failed. They replaced with lead, so being generous, 12 rolls of Code 6 3m x 300mm for £1800 rather than £3000. Slates, well I just haven't seen evidence of significant changes. If anything, they seem to have reslated a bit of next door in new slates and I suspect reused theirs on mine so they look identical. I'm going to say 50 slates for £300 rather than £4800. Being generous and allowing 30% markup takes materials to £3770, and overpaying at £300 a day adds another £500. Total comes to £6770 exVAT. Even with that generosity, it's under their initial estimate of £9200.

Something feels very wrong. Could the scope of the work I think they did be that far out? I went past the building every few days and never saw any signs of significant stripping and reinstating. No photographic evidence to support their claims either. All this just means I'm going to hold out for a breakdown before making any further payment. 

You accepted their initial estimate of £9200, so surely you can see it is a bit late to be complaining that it was excessive?  

HappyScotsman

Tucosalamanca said:

I couldn't possibly say. They won't be using 300mm lead more likely 450 or 600mm, but your estimate of 11sqm could well be correct.
Slates, they probably used more than 50, lots could be used in cuts around the dormers, nature of the job means lots of waste.
Nonetheless, it does sound very expensive and scope of works far less than my rough estimate.
You could always attend with another roofer, while the scaffolding is still up.
They'll quickly tell you what has been done. Even if you had to pay them, it might be money well spent?

Good point on the lead, so perhaps £3000 is closer, or at least close enough not to argue about.

I've been examining some photos I took at the start and after. I can't see any disturbance to the main roof. Unless they took them up and put them back exactly where they came from and didn't break any in the process. And no sawdust or evidence of battens being cut, or bits of old battens on the roof, scaffold or ground though plenty slate chips.

Sides of the dormers were previously covered in slate, and now have been covered over in UPVC. I wasn't told why that was necessary, but my gut feeling is they reused the slates from there to do the edges.

Tucosalamanca

HappyScotsman said:

I've been examining some photos I took at the start and after. I can't see any disturbance to the main roof. Unless they took them up and put them back exactly where they came from and didn't break any in the process. And no sawdust or evidence of battens being cut, or bits of old battens on the roof, scaffold or ground though plenty slate chips.

Sides of the dormers were previously covered in slate, and now have been covered over in UPVC. I wasn't told why that was necessary, but my gut feeling is they reused the slates from there to do the edges.

To be honest, our aim is always to leave the site in perfect condition. A customer likely won't know much about roofing but they'll certainly notice if we've left the place untidy or damaged plants etc. No sign of disturbance could be a good thing, assuming they've done a top job.
Dormer cheeks in uPVC doesn't sound good though (I'm assuming you mean hard plastic rather than uPVC membrane).
If it was Slate before, I would expect slate replacement or dormer cheeks dressed with Lead (which is what I assumed all the Lead was for).
Since the property is listed and conservation area, if they've installed uPVC cladding, that would be disappointing to say the least and would raise a huge red flag for me.
Based on what you've described, I would certainly be asking for further opinions (roofer, surveyor or even builder).
Anywhere between 9-17k for a week's work needs to be of the highest standard, with only two workers can't possibly justify it otherwise.
If the estimate was 9k and it's ended up as 17k, I would expect a written explanation of extra works, along with many photos documenting works carried out.
As a tradesperson, I would do this not only to satisfy the client but also to cover my own back and ensure that I got paid.
if they're throwing a hissy fit and not providing the above, I think you can be sure that something's not right.
Good luck with it, I would act quickly before the scaffolding is removed!

HappyScotsman

These past few days I've been doing a bit of research, making a few calls to suppliers, and playing daft Jimmy with my roofer. The answers he gave me yesterday just didn't stack up to an invoice of £17,700

This afternoon I confronted him. I challenged him on the number of manhours and the number of slates and nails he claimed had been used. The rest of the materials were neither here nor there. He put up a fight but I kept it calm. Long story short and six phone calls within an hour and he agreed to £9,000. 

So a huge thank you to those who made supportive responses to my posts, especially @Tucosalamanca for his insights.

Tucosalamanca

Thanks for the update @HappyScotsman
Glad you've reached an amicable agreement and that the works have been carried out to an acceptable standard.
Traders like this make my life so much more difficult, it just shows what a minefield it is.
Well done for challenging them!