How to Tell if the Roofer is Overcharging Me?

HappyScotsman

I've had a roof leak for too many years, but last month, in a storm, the rain was collecting in buckets. Afterwards, I bit the bullet to get it repaired.

Some points to note: the building is an office about 50 miles away, it's a 200 years old terrace and listed, so roof work has to be carried out to a particular standard to suit the conservation area, and it's on the second floor, so scaffolding is needed. From experience, I know whatever needs to be done will be expensive.

Called in a roofer, he had a brief look but said he'd know better once they had scaffolding up. Next day once that was done, he strips away some of the slates says the flashing around the dormers is perished but the wood is sound.  He gives me an estimate, says it'll take about a week and I tell him to get on with it paying him a deposit and asking for a VAT receipt for the payment. 

As time goes by, I get update calls with one saying there's nail rot and some slates will need replacing as they're in bad condition. Estimate goes up.

In all the bill comes to £17k. Now don't get me wrong. I know heritage roofs are a pain. I know when sizeable work is done, other issues are uncovered. I know putting a roofer up there involves an element of trust. Problem is it's near impossible to shop around and get quotes when you know investigation will be needed. But the last major roof work, perhaps 12 years ago, came to a similar bill in the end. I can afford the £17k even though it smarts.

While all this is going on, I'm periodically asking for a VAT receipt and not getting it. Eventually got a automated payment receipt, but that's no use for a VAT return. Latest is I'll be given a VAT receipt once the entire bill is paid. Ok, minor annoyance since most trades just don't understand VAT.

Now I'd noticed some of my neighbour's slates were slipped so I mentioned it to them and they asked the roofers to fix that while up there. The roofers told them there were a couple of cracked tiles and they could fix them too. But when the neighbour said they'd photos of the roof from before the work started, the roofer admitted they'd broken the tiles and would fix them. Alarm bell one! Later the roofer quoted the neighbour to fix a couple of other bits and repoint. They said it'd be £1,800. Neighbour checked with a roofer friend down south who said it was way over what is should be. Alarm bell two!

The scaffolding is still up, and if the weather is agreeable, I'll go out and take a look at what they've done.

So, I'm left wondering, has the roofer vastly overcharged me?? What can I do it gain some level of trust in the invoice? Any advice welcome.

SuseOrm

To be honest I don’t think there is much you can do at this stage I have had five roofers out over the last 48 hours who have given me quotes from £100 to move the slip tiles to 12 1/2 grand for the apparent new roof that I require and quite a few different numbers in between.  

Did you not get a firm quotation before you allow them to start work sorry if that sounds harsh I just can’t comprehend not

FreeBear

HappyScotsman said: While all this is going on, I'm periodically asking for a VAT receipt and not getting it. Eventually got a automated payment receipt, but that's no use for a VAT return. Latest is I'll be given a VAT receipt once the entire bill is paid. Ok, minor annoyance since most trades just don't understand VAT.

Most trades understand VAT. If they don't, they'll employ an accountant.

Once the work is complete, I'd be insisting on a proper VAT invoice before paying any outstanding - If they don't play ball, report them to HMRC.

HappyScotsman

By the nature of the building, you can't access the roof without scaffolding, so there's £1000 gone straight away. 

If I'd had scaffolding put up, and arranged roofers to quote one at a time, that's a week gone. Appoint a roofer, then wait for availability, I'm still paying for scaffolding by the week.

Even appointing one doesn't mean the cost is fixed since they invariably find other problems while investigating. So would I have asked other roofers to quote for the additional work? 

I suppose my concern is £17k for two bodies working away for a week is a lot. Even if they cost £2k each for wages, taxes etc, that's still £13k in materials and profit. And I seriously doubt materials would have come to more than a couple of thousand.

Or am I really missing something?

Bendy_House

It's hellish. You are a slave to the situation. The only way you can tell if you are being robbed is by having another - trusted - pro (a roofer or surveyor) out to look at it. And then what? You've given these guys the go-ahead.

£17k? Cluckingbells. We can't tell from here whether that is exorbitant, but it would certainly 'appear' to be. That's into 'complete strip and redo' territory. And, if some of the roof is suffering from nail fatigue, then surely the rest cannot be too far behind :-(

What work was carried out 12 years ago? 

And have you ever had a quote for a full recovering - strip, new memb, battens and flashing, and recover? The roof would then see you out...

HappyScotsman

Who knows if the nails are failing or not. It's the word of a roofer. But yes, if some truly have reached end of life, perhaps others are too.

A full strip and redo would be expensive. At least 5 times more scaffolding for starters. A vague plan would be to simply extend the rear as other neighbours have done, convert the building to flats and sell. However, that's a future issue that can be planned, work specified and I'd put out to tender.

benson1980

Get him to break down cost of materials versus labour. You can presumably check if material costs are reasonable, likewise with labour as you know how long he was on site for.

Tucosalamanca

My tuppence worth as a roofer.

You haven't really described scope of works, but even on a heritage build, it's unusual to spend 17k on a domestic roof in a week.

I guess 1,500 finest Welsh slates (about 75sqm), other materials, scaffolding, waste and labour would be around 17k.
If the roofer has spent this, they will be keen to recover costs. It's a lot of materials relative to labour and would almost certainly affect their cashflow.

Roofing Superstore will give some guide to prices, but contrary to popular belief, trades generally pay more (sometimes significantly more) than internet, so bear that in mind.

HappyScotsman

I truly understand how materials can be more expensive than I could pick up from the internet - I can wait a few days for delivery, he can't. He's not got a yard, he's working out of a van and pays the merchant who is holding stock. He'll have a mark up to cover his time and transport. I get it.

My estimate of materials could be way out but as a guess, code 6 lead flashing around two dormers, less than a roll of breathable membrane, bucket of nails. I'll be generous and say 40m2 of slated roof, but most tiles were reused. Any new tiles put on look identical, so they were reclaimed rather than new. Screwing up my eyes, I can't see more than a few £k in materials.

Waste was brought down in bags, no skip was needed, and there weren't any deliveries by third parties. Two men, 5 days on site maximum. Even allowing for a good profit, insurance, buying and running a van and knowing roofers can't work 5 days a week throughout a year, it still feels like I'm being taken for a mug.

GDB2222

HappyScotsman said:

I truly understand how materials can be more expensive than I could pick up from the internet - I can wait a few days for delivery, he can't. He's not got a yard, he's working out of a van and pays the merchant who is holding stock. He'll have a mark up to cover his time and transport. I get it.

My estimate of materials could be way out but as a guess, code 6 lead flashing around two dormers, less than a roll of breathable membrane, bucket of nails. I'll be generous and say 40m2 of slated roof, but most tiles were reused. Any new tiles put on look identical, so they were reclaimed rather than new. Screwing up my eyes, I can't see more than a few £k in materials.

Waste was brought down in bags, no skip was needed, and there weren't any deliveries by third parties. Two men, 5 days on site maximum. Even allowing for a good profit, insurance, buying and running a van and knowing roofers can't work 5 days a week throughout a year, it still feels like I'm being taken for a mug.

I expect that you are being taken for a mug, but you seem to have sleep walked into an arrangement where you didn’t have a quote for most of the work. It’s B2B, so you have no consumer protection. You are in a very awkward situation. If he sues you, I don’t think you have a great case. 

I suggest that you speak to a solicitor on Monday, and hopefully he will tell you that I am completely wrong. On the other hand, he may simply tell you to pay up and be more careful in future.

benson1980

It is a little confusing as the facts are spread across two posts- but there's unfinished work and the customer has asked for a breakdown of costs before payment to verify the workings out of the 17k total bill. Before providing a breakdown of costs, and/or failing to provide this information upon request, he's threatened to undo his work.

All I can say is good luck to the roofer if he tries to pursue this one in court.