Probate Office - problem validating will

CuddlesTC

Apologies for length - I’ve tried to be concise but also pre-empt potential questions.

My uncle died unexpectedly at Christmas; he was single (although with 3 ex-wives and one estranged child who cut off contact with him decades ago), and left a very straightforward will leaving everything to my mum, his only sibling, with me & her as executors.

The will was handwritten on one of those standard forms from a DIY will kit, written 18 years ago, and still showing the address he lived at at the time even though he’d moved a couple of times since.

We applied for probate at the end of March (no inheritance tax was due, but he owned a flat). Eventually in July, we heard from the Probate Office saying:

We are unable to proceed to formally validate the will submitted for probate without further evidence from at least one of the witnesses to the will.

Reason: The testators signature is below the attestation clause. This leads us to investigate if the will was correctly executed in accordance with the laws of England and Wales.

They asked us to supply details of one of the witnesses so they could send him a form, which were able to do, as we knew one of them. He answered most of their questions with essentially “this was 20 years ago, I remember being a witness but nothing else”

After a few more weeks, during which they lost his form and he had to resend it, they’ve come back to us saying that as his answers were inconclusive, they now want the details of the other witness. This is turning out to be much harder, as she was just a neighbour of his at the time, who has long since moved.

So I guess I was hoping someone might know:

1) I don’t really understand what the problem with the will is - it was a simple form which he filled in as indicated

2) what happens if we can’t find the second witness?

3) what happens if we do find her but she also can’t specifically remember my uncle signing the will in front of her & the other witness?

Thank you to anyone that can help, this is causing my mum no end of worry.

Savvy_Sue

Just checking, was the estranged child his, or a step-child?

Marcon

CuddlesTC said:

Apologies for length - I’ve tried to be concise but also pre-empt potential questions.

My uncle died unexpectedly at Christmas; he was single (although with 3 ex-wives and one estranged child who cut off contact with him decades ago), and left a very straightforward will leaving everything to my mum, his only sibling, with me & her as executors.

The will was handwritten on one of those standard forms from a DIY will kit, written 18 years ago, and still showing the address he lived at at the time even though he’d moved a couple of times since.

We applied for probate at the end of March (no inheritance tax was due, but he owned a flat). Eventually in July, we heard from the Probate Office saying:

We are unable to proceed to formally validate the will submitted for probate without further evidence from at least one of the witnesses to the will.

Reason: The testators signature is below the attestation clause. This leads us to investigate if the will was correctly executed in accordance with the laws of England and Wales.

They asked us to supply details of one of the witnesses so they could send him a form, which were able to do, as we knew one of them. He answered most of their questions with essentially “this was 20 years ago, I remember being a witness but nothing else”

After a few more weeks, during which they lost his form and he had to resend it, they’ve come back to us saying that as his answers were inconclusive, they now want the details of the other witness. This is turning out to be much harder, as she was just a neighbour of his at the time, who has long since moved.

So I guess I was hoping someone might know:

1) I don’t really understand what the problem with the will is - it was a simple form which he filled in as indicated

2) what happens if we can’t find the second witness?

3) what happens if we do find her but she also can’t specifically remember my uncle signing the will in front of her & the other witness?

Thank you to anyone that can help, this is causing my mum no end of worry.

Sadly there is no simple reassuring answer, and I can see why your mum must be so worried.

This article might make helpful reading, but I'm afraid it isn't conclusive: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/wills-and-probate/content/103412

I think your best bet is to have a word with a local solicitor and ask for their advice, particularly if you believe your uncle filled in the form exactly as indicated. 

74jax

CuddlesTC said:

Apologies for length - I’ve tried to be concise but also pre-empt potential questions.

My uncle died unexpectedly at Christmas; he was single (although with 3 ex-wives and one estranged child who cut off contact with him decades ago), and left a very straightforward will leaving everything to my mum, his only sibling, with me & her as executors.

The will was handwritten on one of those standard forms from a DIY will kit, written 18 years ago, and still showing the address he lived at at the time even though he’d moved a couple of times since.

We applied for probate at the end of March (no inheritance tax was due, but he owned a flat). Eventually in July, we heard from the Probate Office saying:

We are unable to proceed to formally validate the will submitted for probate without further evidence from at least one of the witnesses to the will.

Reason: The testators signature is below the attestation clause. This leads us to investigate if the will was correctly executed in accordance with the laws of England and Wales.

They asked us to supply details of one of the witnesses so they could send him a form, which were able to do, as we knew one of them. He answered most of their questions with essentially “this was 20 years ago, I remember being a witness but nothing else”

After a few more weeks, during which they lost his form and he had to resend it, they’ve come back to us saying that as his answers were inconclusive, they now want the details of the other witness. This is turning out to be much harder, as she was just a neighbour of his at the time, who has long since moved.

So I guess I was hoping someone might know:

1) I don’t really understand what the problem with the will is - it was a simple form which he filled in as indicated

2) what happens if we can’t find the second witness?

3) what happens if we do find her but she also can’t specifically remember my uncle signing the will in front of her & the other witness?

Thank you to anyone that can help, this is causing my mum no end of worry.

So, are you meaning when you say 'he filled in as indicated' that he signed in the right place? 

Because the Probate reason for not accepting the Will states otherwise. If they are wrong, and you have told them this, then it's time to put it in writing and ask it to be escalated. 

If he did sign in the wrong place then that is the reason and the problem the Probate office have. 

Section 2 here on the government website discusses Attestation. 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/execution-of-deeds/practice-guide-8-execution-of-deeds

Wills are legal documents, and, obviously, need to be filled in correctly. If however the signature is in the right place, push to get this looked at by someone more senior. 

poppystar

Do you have the full name of the other witness and can then check she actually is still alive? Also is the estranged child still alive? If not and they had no dependents then even if the Will can’t be proved your mother would inherit under intestacy. 

Pennylane

I assume you kept copies of the Will.  You can check whether the signature is in the right/wrong place.  The Probate Office DO make mistakes (they made a big one which they admitted to me but it just prolonged my agony) so definitely keep on at them if you know you are in the right.  

CuddlesTC

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your answers - I really shouldn't be here at the moment, so I'll come back in my lunch break to answer specific questions, but in the meantime, here's the will (the redacted parts are names & addresses only)

Keep_pedalling

I really can’t see what the issue is, someone in the probate office seems to be going OTT on this one. As far as AFAIK it should make no difference if the signature is alongside the the clause or immediately below it.

Marcon

CuddlesTC said:

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your answers - I really shouldn't be here at the moment, so I'll come back in my lunch break to answer specific questions, but in the meantime, here's the will (the redacted parts are names & addresses only)

Looks like a mistake by the Probate Office. Go back to them and make a complaint, or follow the suggestion I made previously about getting a solicitor to act on your behalf - they are better versed in this sort of battle, which from the look of what you've posted should never have been a battle at all. The original form is poorly drafted, but as you say, your uncle signed it where shown, so it seems mad that this is being used as a basis for saying the will wasn't properly executed.

CuddlesTC

Thanks again everyone, to quickly summarise:

His biological daughter from his first marriage (who would be about 50 now) was later adopted by her mother's second husband, and we think she also got married (at least once, probably more given her family track record ), so we have no idea of her current name or whereabouts.

We have now managed to track down the second witness through Facebook, but she's on holiday, so can't get any further with her until she gets back.

I appreciate the links, as I've tried hard to find answers myself, but not been very successful; and thanks also for the feedback on the will - I didn't understand why the Probate Office had a problem with the position of the signature either, as I would have thought the intent is perfectly clear no matter where it's signed.

I'll get back to my mum with all your feedback, and have also been given a recommendation of a good local probate solicitor by my boss who has a lot of experience as an executor, so we know where to go if it comes to that.

Again, thank you all

Marcon

CuddlesTC said:

Thanks again everyone, to quickly summarise:

His biological daughter from his first marriage (who would be about 50 now) was later adopted by her mother's second husband, and we think she also got married (at least once, probably more given her family track record ), so we have no idea of her current name or whereabouts.

Then the daughter will have lost her right to inherit from her biological father, which from what you've said suggests your mother is going to be the person who inherits in the (now seemingly unlikely) case that the will is ruled invalid and your uncle is deemed to have died intestate.