Walsall McDonald's Wisemore Ocean Parking

Stefano123

Fresh off the back of a victory over Excel in court, my father was managed to get himself a PCN off another bunch of crooks. He's in his 70s in social housing and can't read or write very well. I don't want him handing over a penny to these thieves.

I also hope this thread can be useful who have also been caught out at this site.

This is the first McDonald's I've every heard at which customers are only given 20 minutes (used to be 10minute) to be on site. For those eating in this is 1 hour (providing you ask a manager for a tablet that they keep hidden behind the counter into which your registration can go). For those using the drive-through however and not going in store, 20 minutes is the maximum.

The appeal has already been rejected and they failed to address any of the point in the template on the Newbies thread.

So I'm seeking some advice/ feedback on the best way to challenge at POPLA.

1. PoFA2012 - my father is not the registered keeper of the vehicle (and neither am I by the way). The PCN was issued within 14 days and seems to be compliant. At the appeal stage the registered keeper appealed in their name and did not identify the driver. I guess Ocean are able to transfer liability to the registered keeper?

2. There is a lack of signage at the entrance to the carpark. The signage that is at the entrance can only be seen if you approach from one direction. It cannot be read from the side my father approached.  BPA Code of Practice (19.10) is clear that where there is a change of terms and conditions, signage needs to be positioned at the entrance to alert returning users of this. He had only used the site once before when the allowed time was 1 hour. 

3. Having entered the carpark, not seeing the signs, my father queued at the drive-through, which took about 10 minutes or so to order and pay, then parked up to eat his meal. No one at McDonald's alerted him to the need to do this. Signage at McDonald's drive-through (which I have been able to locate only by specifically looking for them) are small laminated A4 sheets that are easily missable. It was only when he left the vehicle to bin the rubbish he noticed a sign, which alerted him the need to pay. Thing is, the ONLY method of payment offered is the Ring Go mobile app. Being in his 70s my father didn't have a phone that is capable of hosting apps. So he rang the helpline and no one answered. Having been on site for a little over 30 minutes in total but only actually parked for 15 minutes or so he left the site.       

I'm wondering if its useful to appeal on all of these grounds or whether his best bet is to go with 1 and 2 and leave 3 out of it?

Cheers!

KeithP

You or your father should complain to McDs before filing a PoPLA appeal.

Do that instantly, but do not miss the deadline for submitting a PoPLA appeal.

Fruitcake

If the driver has not been named, then the keeper is liable and it is they who must appeal to PoPLA unless they transfer liability to the driver by telling the PPC who that is.
This should only be done if the driver is better placed to deal with this than the keeper.

The keeper really should be the one posting here otherwise the advice given here will get lost in translation if we have to go through an uninvolved third party.

Plan A is always to complain to the landowner and McD's manager and/or CEO, and the keeper's MP.

If that fails, then all the points available from the third post of the NEWBIES should be used to create a PoPLA appeal. The draft should be shown here for checking before it is submitted.
If the keeper isn't sure if the NTK is or isn't PoFA complaint, they should post a redacted version here for the regulars to check. Leave all dates and location showing but redact personal information.

Get photos of the site and signage in readiness for a PoPLA appeal if Plan A fails.

Stefano123

KeithP said:

You or your father should complain to McDs before filing a PoPLA appeal.

Do that instantly, but do not miss the deadline for submitting a PoPLA appeal.

I have done that in store and they merely directed me to Ocean Parking. They also had no clue who the landowner was. On the site are a number of businesses and McDonald's are not helping according to the reviews on google maps. This site has been making the local media for a good while: https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/black-country/mcdonalds-100-drive-thru-fine-24395657

Stefano123

Fruitcake said:

If the driver has not been named, then the keeper is liable and it is they who must appeal to PoPLA unless they transfer liability to the driver by telling the PPC who that is.
This should only be done if the driver is better placed to deal with this than the keeper.

The keeper really should be the one posting here otherwise the advice given here will get lost in translation if we have to go through an uninvolved third party.

Plan A is always to complain to the landowner and McD's manager and/or CEO, and the keeper's MP.

If that fails, then all the points available from the third post of the NEWBIES should be used to create a PoPLA appeal. The draft should be shown here for checking before it is submitted.
If the keeper isn't sure if the NTK is or isn't PoFA complaint, they should post a redacted version here for the regulars to check. Leave all dates and location showing but redact personal information.

Get photos of the site and signage in readiness for a PoPLA appeal if Plan A fails.

You're making the assumption that the registered keeper and the driver (a) have an internet connection and (b) are able to read and write. Two men in their 70s who are been labourers all their life have neither of these things.  I am doing this on their behalf because these people are both vulnerable people who do not have the confidence nor written skills to defend themselves. I am doing this on their behalf out of sense of justice for two people who are not well equipped. 

Fruitcake

Good. We need more people like you to fight this cancer.

Show us the redacted NTK anyway. The driver can be named at any time up until a court claim has been issued, so I would keep that in the back pocket for now and appeal to PoPLA as keeper, but obviously only if you feel that is the best option.

Get photos of the site and signage and construct an appeal using all the points available from the third post of the NEWBIES.

This will normally include 
Not the landowner
No authority to issue charges in their own name
Inadequate signage
BPA CoP failures
Non PoFA compliant NTK

Coupon-mad

 I guess Ocean are able to transfer liability to the registered keeper?

No need to guess.

The NTK is either a POFA one or not, and the NEWBIES thread first post tells you how to 'dig deeper' and check it against the POFA para 9.

Keep going; helping people is what we do here every day, so we support what you are doing!  I do the same for all my relatives and friends too and not just the more vulnerable ones.  

1505grandad

"1. PoFA2012 - my father is not the registered keeper of the vehicle (and neither am I by the way) but is the named driver. The registered keeper did pass the PCN on to my father. "

So the ppc  know who the driver is?

Fruitcake

Google Streetview still shows the time limit as 10 minutes, so you need to get photos as the signs are now.

Was the drive through used? If so, time in the drive through is not parking and should be deducted from the time on site, otherwise it is an unfair contract term because the (old) signs show that the tariffs (only) apply to parking time.

If the dine in was used, then you also need to see if the signs mention the hidden tablet and Ts and Cs about how to obtain 1 hour free parking.

Stefano123

Fruitcake said:

Google Streetview still shows the time limit as 10 minutes, so you need to get photos as the signs are now.

Was the drive through used? If so, time in the drive through is not parking and should be deducted from the time on site, otherwise it is an unfair contract term because the (old) signs show that the tariffs (only) apply to parking time.

If the dine in was used, then you also need to see if the signs mention the hidden tablet and Ts and Cs about how to obtain 1 hour free parking.

I have picked up on this point in my draft:

On the day in question the drive-through queue was very busy, and the driver estimates it took them around 15 minutes from entering the car park and joining the queue to receiving their food and finally stopping the vehicle in a designated bay. The quantum between entering the car park and actually parking in a designated bay, therefore cannot be considered a ‘parking event’. The claim should fail on this point alone. 

Fruitcake

Does the vehicle have a "black box" fitted, or GPS, or did the driver or passenger have a smart 'phone with location tracking enabled?