Is this a ‘threat’ to make me go over to the dark side to a Smart Meter?

Independantlady

Hi!
Am new to this site and I am worried about this shutdown. There seems to be conflicting information when I google online. Does anyone know when the shut off date is?
Thank you

Gerry1

It's been slipping for over a decade.  But you needn't worry, unless you have a very unusual installation you wouldn't even notice if all the Radio 4 LW transmitters went phut overnight.

Your Radio Tele Switch would carry on quite happily, just as a digital watch would if you didn't set it by the pips every day.

molerat

Currently 31 March 2024

https://www.energynetworks.org/industry-hub/engineering-and-technical-programmes/radio-teleswitch

https://www.edfenergy.com/energywise/RTS-planned-shutdown

Gerry1

Fair bit of scaremongering in that EDF advice, it's highly contentious.  E7 customers won't lose heat or hot water if there's no R4LW RTS signal.  All that will happen is that the internal clock may drift by a few minutes per year.

Raxiel

Do all radio teleswitch setups have clocks? I don't think they do.

Mine was replaced in 2016 and I didn't get any pictures of it (although it looked a lot like the one on Wikipedia), but if it had its own clock it certainly wasn't visible to the consumer.

wrf12345

Had some smart meters from BG fitted four days ago (they only fit the latest type according to the installer) and the electric seems to be reading lower than the electronic type it replaced even though the display seems to read slightly higher than expected when I put on some lights (about 0.1kw a day better - not much but I am a low user, under 2kw a day), so all good so far. Only use gas in the winter so have not checked that one. The installer said each meter could be out by 2.5 percent either way and still be acceptable so possible to be 5 percent better or worse at the extremes. My bill is due in a few days so will see if they have messed the changeover up but I was given signed confirmation of the final and new meter readings by the installer as back-up if something goes amiss in their system.

Gerry1

Raxiel said:

Do all radio teleswitch setups have clocks? I don't think they do.

Mine was replaced in 2016 and I didn't get any pictures of it (although it looked a lot like the one on Wikipedia), but if it had its own clock it certainly wasn't visible to the consumer.

They have to have an internal clock, it's the only way the system can work.  If it relied on simple real-time signalling it would be wide open to fraud and malfunctioning; if a transmitter or mast failed (or the consumer shielded the RTS) it would be unacceptable for the last charging rate to continue indefinitely.  The same effect might occur if local screening meant that the local signal became too weak (new tower blocks, etc); it might even depend on whether the nearby gasholder was full or empty !

Similarly, as nighttime propagation is better than daytime there could be instances where the 'change to night rate' command around midnight was receivable but the 'change to day rate' signal at breakfast time was not.

The RTS shows the active rate (as does the meter) so there is no need for the clock to have a display visible to the consumer, especially as GMT/BST could cause confusion.

Raxiel

Gerry1 said:

Raxiel said:

Do all radio teleswitch setups have clocks? I don't think they do.

Mine was replaced in 2016 and I didn't get any pictures of it (although it looked a lot like the one on Wikipedia), but if it had its own clock it certainly wasn't visible to the consumer.

They have to have an internal clock, it's the only way the system can work.  If it relied on simple real-time signalling it would be wide open to fraud and malfunctioning; if a transmitter or mast failed (or the consumer shielded the RTS) it would be unacceptable for the last charging rate to continue indefinitely.  The same effect might occur if local screening meant that the local signal became too weak (new tower blocks, etc); it might even depend on whether the nearby gasholder was full or empty !

Similarly, as nighttime propagation is better than daytime there could be instances where the 'change to night rate' command around midnight was receivable but the 'change to day rate' signal at breakfast time was not.

The RTS shows the active rate (as does the meter) so there is no need for the clock to have a display visible to the consumer, especially as GMT/BST could cause confusion.

So you got me curious.

RE the fraud protection, a simple countdown from the last signal would fix that from the suppliers point of view, but while I haven't found anything definitive either way, it looks like you're right and they do have a clock, but it's not like the ones on the non-RTS E7 meters.

A teardown video of an RTS showed it was more complex than I'd assumed, with a microcomputer based on the venerable Motorola 68k.

From what I've found elsewhere, the RTS signal also includes the current time as well as switching data, so the switch likely does have some kind of internal fallback if the signal is lost. There's no sign of any battery or mechanical backup though. As soon as the power went out for any reason it would likely have its programming wiped and would sit, waiting for new instructions. Not a problem in service, but post shutdown, will never come.

This is all just conjecture though. All the supplier pages I checked (not just EDF) say they'll stop working, not that they'll become inaccurate. You might argue they would say that, but unless anyone has tested one of these things inside a faraday cage for all or part of the day or someone can provide original design documents we'll never know until the signal is actually switched off.

Gerry1

Raxiel said:

Gerry1 said:

Raxiel said:

Do all radio teleswitch setups have clocks? I don't think they do.

Mine was replaced in 2016 and I didn't get any pictures of it (although it looked a lot like the one on Wikipedia), but if it had its own clock it certainly wasn't visible to the consumer.

They have to have an internal clock, it's the only way the system can work.  If it relied on simple real-time signalling it would be wide open to fraud and malfunctioning; if a transmitter or mast failed (or the consumer shielded the RTS) it would be unacceptable for the last charging rate to continue indefinitely.  The same effect might occur if local screening meant that the local signal became too weak (new tower blocks, etc); it might even depend on whether the nearby gasholder was full or empty !

Similarly, as nighttime propagation is better than daytime there could be instances where the 'change to night rate' command around midnight was receivable but the 'change to day rate' signal at breakfast time was not.

The RTS shows the active rate (as does the meter) so there is no need for the clock to have a display visible to the consumer, especially as GMT/BST could cause confusion.

As soon as the power went out for any reason it would likely have its programming wiped and would sit, waiting for new instructions. Not a problem in service, but post shutdown, will never come.

No, Droitwich has failed or been off the air for aerial maintenance many times but my RTS has always carried on quite happily.  It remembered my split E7 hours which I'd specifically requested long before it became standard in my region.

Raxiel said:

Gerry1 said:

Raxiel said:

Do all radio teleswitch setups have clocks? I don't think they do.

Mine was replaced in 2016 and I didn't get any pictures of it (although it looked a lot like the one on Wikipedia), but if it had its own clock it certainly wasn't visible to the consumer.

They have to have an internal clock, it's the only way the system can work.  If it relied on simple real-time signalling it would be wide open to fraud and malfunctioning; if a transmitter or mast failed (or the consumer shielded the RTS) it would be unacceptable for the last charging rate to continue indefinitely.  The same effect might occur if local screening meant that the local signal became too weak (new tower blocks, etc); it might even depend on whether the nearby gasholder was full or empty !

Similarly, as nighttime propagation is better than daytime there could be instances where the 'change to night rate' command around midnight was receivable but the 'change to day rate' signal at breakfast time was not.

The RTS shows the active rate (as does the meter) so there is no need for the clock to have a display visible to the consumer, especially as GMT/BST could cause confusion.

All the supplier pages I checked (not just EDF) say they'll stop working, not that they'll become inaccurate. You might argue that they would say that

I do !  The Ovo site is even worse for scaremongering

Raxiel said:

Gerry1 said:

Raxiel said:

Do all radio teleswitch setups have clocks? I don't think they do.

Mine was replaced in 2016 and I didn't get any pictures of it (although it looked a lot like the one on Wikipedia), but if it had its own clock it certainly wasn't visible to the consumer.

They have to have an internal clock, it's the only way the system can work.  If it relied on simple real-time signalling it would be wide open to fraud and malfunctioning; if a transmitter or mast failed (or the consumer shielded the RTS) it would be unacceptable for the last charging rate to continue indefinitely.  The same effect might occur if local screening meant that the local signal became too weak (new tower blocks, etc); it might even depend on whether the nearby gasholder was full or empty !

Similarly, as nighttime propagation is better than daytime there could be instances where the 'change to night rate' command around midnight was receivable but the 'change to day rate' signal at breakfast time was not.

The RTS shows the active rate (as does the meter) so there is no need for the clock to have a display visible to the consumer, especially as GMT/BST could cause confusion.

unless anyone has tested one of these things inside a faraday cage for all or part of the day or someone can provide original design documents we'll never know until the signal is actually switched off.

As above, no problem when Droitwich has failed.

Raxiel

Gerry1 said:

No, Droitwich has failed or been off the air for aerial maintenance many times but my RTS has always carried on quite happily.  It remembered my split E7 hours which I'd specifically requested long before it became standard in my region.

I do !  The Ovo site is even worse for scaremongering

As above, no problem when Droitwich has failed.

Did you lose power between it failing and being restored?