Government funded Insulation improvements

wittynamegoeshere

I fitted several windows in our previous house.  When it came to selling, the seller questionnaire asked whether new windows had been fitted (yes), whether the installer was FENSA registered (no).  That was it, no lies were told, no further questions were asked, that was the end of it.  House sold without hiccups, that was the end of the matter.  Nobody died and the sky didn't fall down.

We also had an issue in that the rewire was done by a registered sparky, but the certificate had not been provided to us as we had a fall-out due to him attempting to charge double the original quote.  I got an electrician to carry out a safety test just before selling and provided that test certificate to the seller's solicitor.  Again - no lies told, no further questions and everyone happy.

There are definitely botch DIY jobs around, but also good ones.  I've removed a wetroom that was "professionally" installed for a previous occupant under some kind of grant scheme and it was an utter joke.  Need to connect a 40mm pipe into the end of a 110mm waste pipe under the floor and don't want to spend £5 on an adaptor?  Easy, just stick the small pipe into the end of the big one and chuck concrete over it.  Seriously, this was what I removed.

So I'd say use your brain and decide for yourself whether you're competent or not.  From what I've seen and heard from tradesmen giving quotes for doing work, it's not difficult for a DIYer to know more than some tradesmen after an hour on google and youtube.

But... back on subject, I suspect that a lot of our problems stem from the age of our houses.  For many, the best plan would be demolish and start again, but the high house prices and labour costs make this uneconomic.  So it's hard to see a good way forward.  But personally, we've moved from a 1930s house with draughty vented floorboards to a 1950s one with concrete floors and it's a vast improvement.  So perhaps if more people were more selective about not buying old houses then market forces would make them economic to buy and demolish or do the vast amount of work that they need.  But currently a 100 year old house with solid walls costs about the same as a newer one with cavity walls so paying for the work doesn't make economic sense.  Perhaps higher energy costs and more awareness could mean the situation resolves itself eventually.

FreeBear

brewerdave said:

FreeBear said:

Deleted_User said:

I think it’s quite legitimate that building control or FENSA get involved if a diyer replaces their own windows.

It’s to protect the next owner of the house.

If the government does launch a scheme to really push insulation, I hope it will be better regulated than the Green Deal scam scheme was - It didn't take long for the endless stream of cold calls to really [redacted] me off. And as for the funding (pay off a loan with the energy savings), that turned out to be a real bad deal for the home owner.

No. Any new scheme needs to be properly funded with tight regulation, or we will end up with another wild west and the cowboys ripping everyone off with shoddy work.

100% agreement ! The cowboys are already at it - we get a stream of calls every few weeks, from "your local Energy adviser" who wants to come and check our loft for insulation.

That will be the bunch of muppets trying to con you with spray foam insulation - I eventually had one of their "advisors" round, and once I got his business card, gave him a right roasting. He got a little upset that I was wasting his time...

Still reported his company to the ICO. Not had any more calls since.

Dolor said:

We need to bear in mind that the Government’s room for manoeuvre is restricted by its latest price fix. Historically, Governments of all colours have come up with schemes that are either paid for by the consumer by using the accruing savings to cover the cost (Green Deal) or by adding the cost to all consumers’ bills.

I cannot see there being an immediate rush to add more to the taxpayer debt.

But we will be paying for this latest pricing intervention for years to come and the policy does nothing to address the underlying issue.

wrf12345

"I think it’s quite legitimate that building control or FENSA get involved if a diyer replaces their own windows.

It’s to protect the next owner of the house." That is what surveyors are for and they will be aware that it is DIY thru lack of fensa or building control cert. Much better to have BC and planning concentrating on new housing which is often way below modern specs.

BUFF

QrizB said:

Cardew said:

The UK ranks among the worst in Europe for the energy efficiency of its homes, according to new research outlining an urgent need to reduce the amount of heat being wasted. Experts are warning that while Liz Truss has bought the government time with her £100 million package, similarly expensive and unsustainable schemes will be needed unless substantial plans are introduced to improve homes and reduce demand.'

Not helped by the national obsession with preserving the past. I'm sure Victorian terraces were a great improvement on whatever foetid hovels came before them, but solid walls and sash windows aren't desirable features in 21st Century housing.

Sash windows aren't necessarily a bad thing & can be made efficient. Depending upon Listing & Conservation Area approvals even sash windows in those can be although rarely cost effective to double glaze imo (draught-proofing them is cheap) in those unless the timber frames already needed replacing (secondary glazing may be more cost effective albeit not as efficient).  Many buildings/areas will be allowed to fit alternative window styles & materials at less cost.

Solid walls are imo a bigger concern (especially in detached or semi-detached), obviously more invasive to improve & once more, may be subject to potential Listing & Conservation Area approvals. Again when, I have run the nos. for my own terrace & with my consumption even if I were allowed to it's not cost effective for me.

I do prefer period properties though & the cost of living in & maintaining one is the price to pay for that.

wittynamegoeshere

I don't have experience of modern sash windows, but the ones in my childhood victorian home were appalling.  You may as well have left them open.  But I suppose that modern ones are capable of being just as good as patio doors, as they're the same concept of an opening sliding pane.  But there are still loads of old sash windows around, many of them lovingly restored, and lots are legally preserved by listing and conservation status.

Perhaps we need a national conversation about the conflicts and contradictions there are between preservation and efficiency.  In many cases improving insulation would be illegal.  That seems wrong, perhaps these restrictions need to be looked at again in view of higher energy costs.  To me it seems reasonable to compromise on preservation if that is an obstacle.  We seem to be turning the country into a giant museum, where the owners serve the buildings rather than the other way around, and the conservation officers don't seem to answer to anyone and sometimes make up the rules as they see fit.

sienew

wittynamegoeshere said:

I don't have experience of modern sash windows, but the ones in my childhood victorian home were appalling.  You may as well have left them open.  But I suppose that modern ones are capable of being just as good as patio doors, as they're the same concept of an opening sliding pane.  But there are still loads of old sash windows around, many of them lovingly restored, and lots are legally preserved by listing and conservation status.

Perhaps we need a national conversation about the conflicts and contradictions there are between preservation and efficiency.  In many cases improving insulation would be illegal.  That seems wrong, perhaps these restrictions need to be looked at again in view of higher energy costs.  To me it seems reasonable to compromise on preservation if that is an obstacle.  We seem to be turning the country into a giant museum, where the owners serve the buildings rather than the other way around, and the conservation officers don't seem to answer to anyone and sometimes make up the rules as they see fit.

Its already the case that sash windows can be replaced. I live just outside a highly protected conservation area and the local council have no issue with old sash windows being replaced with double glazed sash windows, in the past few years I've even noticed a few upvc "wood effect" sash windows being installed. I have sash windows in the front and would say they are similar in terms draughts and heat loss as any other wooden framed windows. The upvc I have to the rear of the house are slightly better because they seal 100% meaning there is never any draughts and very minimal heat loss.

There are very very few houses where windows can't be replaced with double glazing.

BUFF

Modern sash windows can be made to at least A+ rating if double-glazed. Triple-glazed sashes also exist although are obviously heavier which could be an issue.

As I said, you can easily & cheaply upgrade Victorian/Edwardian sashes in terms of draught-proofing either by pin on seals or replacement staff/parting beads etc. with seals..
I live in a Conservation Area where the local council rules say that for the main public elevation the windows have to remain timber & exactly the same in dimensions/design as original. They would let me double-glaze them (either DGUs into existing, modified frames/sashes or complete replacement) but for me, at current prices/consumption I calculate it woud take in excess of 60 years for the energy saving to pay for the cost (& that doesn't include almost certain DGU replacement costs over those 60 years).

I have DIY secondary glazed for £600 which I believe will pay for itself in under 10 years (this Winter will be the first test & data).

You then have to make sure that you are getting adequate ventilation to not have condensation issues in/on walls!

savers_united

I was quoted more than £25k for EWI, approx 3 years ago, at the time the payback would have taken 30+ years. Its these schemes that are crying out for govt support, I would happily pay 50% of the cost even though its still alot of money and a long payback period compared to other measures as it does improve the appearance of the property, flat roof insulation is another as these warm roofs need the old roof removed, but again they look attractive once done so it's a win win. 

sienew

savers_united said:

I was quoted more than £25k for EWI, approx 3 years ago, at the time the payback would have taken 30+ years. Its these schemes that are crying out for govt support, I would happily pay 50% of the cost even though its still alot of money and a long payback period compared to other measures as it does improve the appearance of the property, flat roof insulation is another as these warm roofs need the old roof removed, but again they look attractive once done so it's a win win. 

The issue becomes, if it isn't a good enough ROI for you, is it a good enough return for the government/taxpayers?

For £25k they could invest in wind/solar/nuclear instead and it'd probably provide most of your power for the next 30 years and over that period would probably provide more energy than the energy saving measures would save over the expected lifespan of your house. 

I wish I could be a bigger supporter of insulation but once you get past the basic (loft insulation, cavity wall, double  glazing) the time for a return on your investment just isn't worth it. Not only that but if you spend £25k on improvements, in general people don't see the EPC as a selling point and it probably wouldn't even significantly increase the house value which is a huge shame.

Cardew

wrf12345 said:

The big heat loss is mostly through the windows, so no point doing more insulation until the windows are upgraded to triple glazing but, of course, DIY's who can buy direct from the factories either have to get a Fensa guy to fit  them or building control to sign them off, so much more expensive than it needs to be. Rather than throwing yet more money away, the govn should allow DIYers to fit their own windows without needing to involve the council or Fensa (their own windows not doing it for business and only triple glazing). They can even tout it as one of the benefits of Brexit, god knows there are few others.

Are windows the source of big heat loss? 

The consensus seems to be that 10% of heat is lost through window - albeit unsurprisingly some double-glazing firms will quote a higher figure.

The Energy Saving Trust website updated 08 September 2022 Energy efficient windows and doors - Energy Saving Trust states:

'A set of A-rated windows for a semi-detached house will typically cost around £7,500.

By installing A-rated double glazing to windows in an entirely single-glazed semi-detached gas heated property, you could save £145 a year and 335kg of carbon dioxide.

If you installed A++ rated double glazed windows replacing single glazing, the savings could be up to £175 a year and 410kg of carbon dioxide.'

Note those savings are for replacing single glazing - not upgrading old double glazing. So hardly a decent return on investment!

Also raised before on this forum, but a problem largely ignored, is the life of double-glazed units before they 'blow' and need replacing.