Government funded Insulation improvements

Cardew

I keep reading in the press that politicians continually complain that Britain’s housing stock has the lowest standard of insulation in Europe etc and instead of £billions spent to subsidise energy bills, that money should be spent on better insulation.  

I accept that there will be properties that could have more insulation in the attic or their cavity walls have not been filled with insulation. However I suspect that this does not apply to the majority of properties as there have been Council/government subsidies for those improvements for years. 

Since most properties built since the 60’s have double glazing and cavity insulation, what cost-effective improvements for government expenditure are they suggesting? (I am not talking here about measures occupants can take like thick curtains or draft stoppers.) ‘Silk purse out of a sow’s ear’ comes to mind!

markin

Cavity wall insulation is a lot better than i thought, But attics are still very poor. 8.5m homes have solid walls and need internal or external insulation minus the 772K already done.  At 10K each would that be £77B? For 7.7m homes.

EDIT "a loft insulated with at least 125mm" So a useless number.

"At the end of 2020, 14.3 million properties had cavity wall insulation (70 per cent of properties with a cavity wall), 16.6 million had loft insulation (66 per cent of properties with a loft) and 772,000 had solid wall insulation (nine per cent of properties with solid walls)."
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/970064/Detailed_Release_-_HEE_stats_18_Mar_2021_FINAL.pdf

kuratowski

I thought that the subsidies were generally only available to those on low incomes?  And the payback period for self-funded improvements for insulation was very long indeed, before the recent price rises.

sienew

This is quite true.

I've been to a lot of property viewings (30+) for both myself and others and therefore a lot of attics and don't recall seeing any without loft insulation. I'm sure there are some without but they aren't that common and given it was offered for free for years they probably don't want it. I am in the cold north so imagine loft insulation is more common here than maybe down south where the benefit isn't as great.

EPC's give similar information and generally the suggestions don't provide good value. It's a lot of... "if you invest £1,000 in X energy saving measure you might save £10 a year on your energy bill".

Double glazing is in by far the majority of houses now, the exception maybe being in the lower end of rented accommodation where the owner doesn't invest anything and conservation areas where replacing the windows isn't always quite as simple. I doubt you can even buy single glazed windows these days.

So yeah, I think you are right. The vast majority of energy saving measures that give a good ROI have already been done.

The last remaining energy saving measure that provides a good return is probably the very basic measures that you mention like draught stoppers but I can't imagine the government sending people around to fit letter box covers, draught excluders or lining peoples curtains for them.

Cardew

 Similar comment in paper today:

'Britain will be plunged into an even worse energy crisis in a year’s time without an immediate plan to improve leaky homes and dramatically reduce demand for gas, ministers have been warned.

The UK ranks among the worst in Europe for the energy efficiency of its homes, according to new research outlining an urgent need to reduce the amount of heat being wasted. Experts are warning that while Liz Truss has bought the government time with her £100 million package, similarly expensive and unsustainable schemes will be needed unless substantial plans are introduced to improve homes and reduce demand.'

QrizB

Cardew said:

The UK ranks among the worst in Europe for the energy efficiency of its homes, according to new research outlining an urgent need to reduce the amount of heat being wasted. Experts are warning that while Liz Truss has bought the government time with her £100 million package, similarly expensive and unsustainable schemes will be needed unless substantial plans are introduced to improve homes and reduce demand.'

Not helped by the national obsession with preserving the past. I'm sure Victorian terraces were a great improvement on whatever foetid hovels came before them, but solid walls and sash windows aren't desirable features in 21st Century housing.

wrf12345

Attic insulation was cheap to do before Brexit/Covid and minimal skill needed and it was free at one point, so hard to believe that there are millions of houses with poor loft insulation. 

My experience of cavity insulation, it made little or no difference, this was the free stuff when the govn was funding it and the high spec foam stuff rather than beads. My current house has bead insulation done for free before I bought it but looking inside the walls when pulling out windows and doors, it was very poorly done with large areas where there were no beads, so typical of govn funded projects where the price goes up and the quality down, despite having layers of agencies "checking" things.

The big heat loss is mostly through the windows, so no point doing more insulation until the windows are upgraded to triple glazing but, of course, DIY's who can buy direct from the factories either have to get a Fensa guy to fit  them or building control to sign them off, so much more expensive than it needs to be. Rather than throwing yet more money away, the govn should allow DIYers to fit their own windows without needing to involve the council or Fensa (their own windows not doing it for business and only triple glazing). They can even tout it as one of the benefits of Brexit, god knows there are few others.

[Deleted User]

I think it’s quite legitimate that building control or FENSA get involved if a diyer replaces their own windows.

It’s to protect the next owner of the house.

FreeBear

Deleted_User said:

I think it’s quite legitimate that building control or FENSA get involved if a diyer replaces their own windows.

It’s to protect the next owner of the house.

Just to point out, there are other installers in the Competent Person Scheme. CERTASS can also provide certificates. With windows & doors, it is not always a straight forward "rip out old, bung in new". Particularly with older buildings, you need to be aware that the old frames could be providing structural support for the outer leaf of brickwork. If this is the case, then a lintel is required. Get it wrong, and cracks start to appear in your walls as the brickwork slowly drops.

If the government does launch a scheme to really push insulation, I hope it will be better regulated than the Green Deal scam scheme was - It didn't take long for the endless stream of cold calls to really [redacted] me off. And as for the funding (pay off a loan with the energy savings), that turned out to be a real bad deal for the home owner.

No. Any new scheme needs to be properly funded with tight regulation, or we will end up with another wild west and the cowboys ripping everyone off with shoddy work.

brewerdave

FreeBear said:

Deleted_User said:

I think it’s quite legitimate that building control or FENSA get involved if a diyer replaces their own windows.

It’s to protect the next owner of the house.

If the government does launch a scheme to really push insulation, I hope it will be better regulated than the Green Deal scam scheme was - It didn't take long for the endless stream of cold calls to really [redacted] me off. And as for the funding (pay off a loan with the energy savings), that turned out to be a real bad deal for the home owner.

No. Any new scheme needs to be properly funded with tight regulation, or we will end up with another wild west and the cowboys ripping everyone off with shoddy work.

100% agreement ! The cowboys are already at it - we get a stream of calls every few weeks, from "your local Energy adviser" who wants to come and check our loft for insulation.
We had our loft done a few years ago with an extra 270mm but declined "free" cavity wall insulation for exactly the reasons outlined in @wrf12345's post above and also the fact that they wanted us to pay for scaffolding the gable ends and over the garage which would have made any payback non existent.

[Deleted User]

We need to bear in mind that the Government’s room for manoeuvre is restricted by its latest price fix. Historically, Governments of all colours have come up with schemes that are either paid for by the consumer by using the accruing savings to cover the cost (Green Deal) or by adding the cost to all consumers’ bills.

I cannot see there being an immediate rush to add more to the taxpayer debt.