Average usage my **** said Jim Royle

Miser1964

We need to face facts that many people have limited understanding of percentage, unit pricing etc. I recall many people assume a multi-pack is cheaper, rather than looking at the price per 100g or per litre when choosing goods.

Also, the gas fitters have to be called to account. They've been installing combi boilers with the output flow temp set to 80°C with the C/H output set to 100% of the 30kW+ capacity. Radiators are scorching hot but the combi doesn't run in efficient condensing mode. Fitters don't know/don't care about optimising the system.

And the gas industry has pretty much frightened anyone from doing any optimising the system, spinning the mantra that touching your boiler is illegal.

sienew

Miser1964 said:

We need to face facts that many people have limited understanding of percentage, unit pricing etc. I recall many people assume a multi-pack is cheaper, rather than looking at the price per 100g or per litre when choosing goods.

Also, the gas fitters have to be called to account. They've been installing combi boilers with the output flow temp set to 80°C with the C/H output set to 100% of the 30kW+ capacity. Radiators are scorching hot but the combi doesn't run in efficient condensing mode. Fitters don't know/don't care about optimising the system.

And the gas industry has pretty much frightened anyone from doing any optimising the system, spinning the mantra that touching your boiler is illegal.

To be fair to gas fitters, if the radiators weren't scorching hot people would probably (wrongly) assume the boiler isn't a good one, undersized or complain about the lack of heat output. Being hotter is one of the ways most people probably judge if their new boiler was worth it.

[Deleted User]

I don't think it makes any difference what the defined "typical usage" is anyway, no matter where you shift it, up or down, there will still be the same total number of people above or below that "typical usage" to which the comparison does not apply.

I'm pretty much spot on for the gas used on my Archetype (for now, will be lower this winter) but nearly double on my elec - which is also dropping in light of the increasing costs.

What we need is clarity around what each individual household usage and an easy way for householders to use that comparison consistently.

And that's the problem, I have never had an energy bill with a correct "your estimated annual consumption" figure ever from an energy supplier, instead, I rely on my spreadsheet with monthly readings dating back several years which proves to be the most consistent and accurate when making comparisons.

The biggest part of this problem isn't the Ofgem or Government caps and the "typical usage" scenario, people will end up paying for whatever they use regardless of what the cap is and how it is calculated.

The big problem in my eyes is that I reckon that a large proportion of historic switchers moving to better deals probably aren't getting a better deal because they haven't used accurate consumption figures in the comparison and simply work off monthly DD as their baseline.

I have almost daily conversations with people who are clearly capable of understanding the costs of goods and managing money yet have totally missed the point on energy prices. One recent conversation was with somebody that said they had got a "fix" a few weeks ago that works out less than the government's £2500 per year cap so they are better off anyway - but all they had done is multiplied monthly payments by 12 and assumed they must be on a better deal.

We need a better narrative to explain prices and accurate personalised per household consumption figures.

arnoldy

Miser1964 said:

Also, the gas fitters have to be called to account. They've been installing combi boilers with the output flow temp set to 80°C with the C/H output set to 100% of the 30kW+ capacity. Radiators are scorching hot but the combi doesn't run in efficient condensing mode. Fitters don't know/don't care about optimising the system.

This would be a good subject for a cheap, effective publicity campaign to have people set their boilers effectively. 

I always think these figures for energy are like car mpg - indicative using a standard scenario. If you try and burn people off at the lights, you can't get the same mpg as a smooth and careful driver.

On a previous point 14C might be a bit parky for the sitting room in the evening for some but it's also too hot for a bedroom/hallway. 16-17C would be a good temperature - balance between comfort and cost.

sienew

Deleted_User said:

I have almost daily conversations with people who are clearly capable of understanding the costs of goods and managing money yet have totally missed the point on energy prices. One recent conversation was with somebody that said they had got a "fix" a few weeks ago that works out less than the government's £2500 per year cap so they are better off anyway - but all they had done is multiplied monthly payments by 12 and assumed they must be on a better deal.

We need a better narrative to explain prices and accurate personalised per household consumption figures.

This is slightly related but I think the energy monitor plugs should probably be given away by the govt. Maybe just for the P&P cost? I think these really do help people at least begin to understand their usage.

It's easy to say a house uses 3900kwh of electricity this year but most people have essentially no idea where this goes. To cut energy I see people talking about turning their TV off standby for example, it's not always the case but most modern TV's use almost nothing while on standby whereas opening the fridge and leaving the door open for 20 seconds actually causes quite a spike. My very small pond pump is an example of something I never even thought about but actually it draws a fair bit of power (over the year, especially at the October cap, would have been quite a lot).

This is why I don't think people understand kwh and the comparison between filling up your car with fuel doesn't work. A car is one "device" so you know how much it's using, at home you can easily have 30 devices pulling electricity and you somehow have to figure out what is using all the energy.

It could be argued that smart meters do a similar thing to smart plugs but I don't think they are anywhere near as effective at finding which devices draw most power. The smart plugs are also far cheaper, regularly on offer for less than £10.

arnoldy

This is slightly related but I think the energy monitor plugs should probably be given away by the govt. Maybe just for the P&P cost? I think these really do help people at least begin to understand their usage.

This is an excellent suggestion, making and helping people be responsible for their own choices. On a similar vein slow cookers are massive ££s money savers and often <£20. All this is practical stuff that can make a difference, a refreshing change from all the helplessness that one often seems to read about in the media.

BikingBud

Xbigman said:

Mstty said:

Xbigman said:

The lowest archetype on there is double my usage. 


Darren

Well you are a money saving whizz, I think for regulars here they do have their saving minds switched on. We don't fit into any of the architypes now we have started our energy reduction exercise 

Over recent years I have been continually amazed when posters come on this board saying they are 'low users' or 'very frugal' when they clearly are not. I'm now realising that my usage is not just low, it is exceptionally low and that I live incredibly cheaply. So cheaply I fall off the bottom of government charts. This seems to be because I am prepared to be inconvenienced more than others. The vast majority of people, maybe 99%, live completely convenience based life styles. A car is an essential, a dishwasher is an essential, a tumble drier is an essential. Then there are the things that, whilst not essential are so useful they are worth having, like a freezer. The number of people I know with either a fridge freezer and a freezer or a gigantic freezer is frightening. Its everybody. I've asked several how many kwh their FF and F use each year and not one had any clue and yet they all moaned about high bills. Just what is wrong with people?



Darren 

One's perspective of what is essential or otherwise cannot really be scrutinised and assessing based upon your priorities is likely to miss the specifics of the user.

A dishwasher used twice a week that heats hot water only when required may be more efficient than heating a tank and drawing hot water to wash by hand. Would you consider that washing clothes in a machine was a luxury?

With regard to fridge or freezers, what is the true running cost? Not just the power burden but how much can be saved by buying bread, meat, fish or any other product when reduced and freezing it. Committing to buying bulk meat, half a lamb or pig from a butcher may be very cost effective if you can freeze it. If you buy at half price then you have to offset this saving against the power but is it wasteful? You may also grow fruit or veg and find that freezing your own produce provides a massive saving over buying commercially.

Yes an empty freezer is likely wasteful but your generalisation doesn't really assess the benefits of the devices.

BikingBud

arnoldy said:

This is slightly related but I think the energy monitor plugs should probably be given away by the govt. Maybe just for the P&P cost? I think these really do help people at least begin to understand their usage.

This is an excellent suggestion, making and helping people be responsible for their own choices. On a similar vein slow cookers are massive ££s money savers and often <£20. All this is practical stuff that can make a difference, a refreshing change from all the helplessness that one often seems to read about in the media.

Cheap offcuts of meat, bagged into 500g bags and stored in the "non-sessential" freezer and brought out to chuck in the slow cooker.

A cobbler scone on top, dinner and lefties for lunch the next day

Xbigman

 

One's perspective of what is essential or otherwise cannot really be scrutinised and assessing based upon your priorities is likely to miss the specifics of the user.

A dishwasher used twice a week that heats hot water only when required may be more efficient than heating a tank and drawing hot water to wash by hand. Would you consider that washing clothes in a machine was a luxury?

With regard to fridge or freezers, what is the true running cost? Not just the power burden but how much can be saved by buying bread, meat, fish or any other product when reduced and freezing it. Committing to buying bulk meat, half a lamb or pig from a butcher may be very cost effective if you can freeze it. If you buy at half price then you have to offset this saving against the power but is it wasteful? You may also grow fruit or veg and find that freezing your own produce provides a massive saving over buying commercially.

Yes an empty freezer is likely wasteful but your generalisation doesn't really assess the benefits of the devices.

On a forum like this you have to talk in general. There will always be people who really do need a car or really do need a freezer for various reasons. Am I supposed to put up 30,000,000 posts, one for each household in the country? The reality is that the average person has too much fridge capacity and too much freezer capacity. Its also a case that these items are generally badly managed. Getting rid of or reducing those capacities is an excellent way to reduce energy usage. 

As for cars.
I like a good anecdote so, story time with Darren
Last week I bumped into a former work colleague (I retired). He had a good moan about money in general. He has always been short of money and the increased cost of living is going to hurt. I suggested he could get rid of his car. I cycled to work with an ebike for 7 years but also with a regular old clunker bike for 5 months. I was overweight and not very fit, so I know its possible to do it. Its only 4.6 miles. I started to lay out the benefits but stopped when I saw the complete look of horror on his face. 
"You mean my wife would have a car and I wouldn't?" 
I guess some things are essential for non practical reasons too.


Darren

arnoldy

Xbigman said:

On a forum like this you have to talk in general. There will always be people who really do need a car or really do need a freezer for various reasons. Am I supposed to put up 30,000,000 posts, one for each household in the country? The reality is that the average person has too much fridge capacity and too much freezer capacity. Its also a case that these items are generally badly managed. Getting rid of or reducing those capacities is an excellent way to reduce energy usage. 



Darren

One of the best put posts. For example, just because there may be one person in UK who is endothermic and needs the house heated to 36.4C does not mean we have to discuss the costs of heating a house to that temperature. It is not helpful to keep raising outliers or special cases, we can't debate every permutation, or look through the lenses of all the outliers. We can only debate and take on the wise words of generalities. Otherwise, we couldn't discuss smart plugs because someone would raise the case of a person who only has a paraffin fridge and lights the house with hurricane lamps or so forth.