Energy rationing

sammyjammy

I wouldn't worry too much about Rishi says

pensionpawn

MattMattMattUK said:

facade said:

Now you've all fitted smart meters with remote disconnection they can cut off or leave on any individual household, so they could easily have a priority list.

They cannot just disconect people remotely using smart meters. Even ignoring the legal issues (which could be fixed) the solution is not technology in place, would require software changes and testing to work and could easily be blocked by consumers with a Faraday cage. All the plans involve cutting supplies based on substations, so parts of towns, whole villages, a few dozens of streets etc.

facade said:

This will only be electric, they can't go around cutting off gas supplies on a whim, lots of us have pilot lights that will go out and require a lot of effort, possibly for some an engineer visit, to relight. Then there are the old fashioned cookers that will be on and spew out gas when the supply is restored. They will ask for voluntary reductions, and close factories on a rota basis.

They won't cut as because of the problems, loss of pressurisation in gas supply requires engineers to visit every property as it is restarted, however cutting electricity is expected to remove the majority of domestic gas consumption as boilers will not work without power.

I agree that even with a working "smart" meter (my energy company asked me to start manual readings again as it stopped communicating to them after 12 months!) your supply just can't be switched off on a whim, however if electricity rationing is introduced with an advance schedule, I don't think there's much you can complain about if the government invoke emergency procedures. That said, I know that telecoms companies are in feasibility study talks with the energy companies regarding the gov' idea of rebates for lowering household demand at peak times. Can't see it working though, too many variables.

[Deleted User]

jj_43 said:

MouldyOldDough said:

Sunak has just said that fuel rationing is possible in the future
Would this affect everyone or would those who are classed as on priority service register be immune from  being switched off? 

Fuel rationing is already occurring for example:

Prepayment meter running out of credit, self disconnection. 

Individuals reducing usage, like turning off the lights, stopping to use the oven, to turning down the heating. 

Turning off your heating between set hours or calendar where otherwise you would turn on is energy rationing.
Next we have demand destruction, businesses deciding to close between Monday to Wednesday. Or businesses going bankrupt.
and so on.
the price signal, will to a point, encourage more supplies/less demand to avoid mandatory energy rationing.
Large scale energy users will be paid large sums to reduce usage.

Running out of gas is an alarmist scenario, but before we get to that situation prices will be extremely high. 

Electricity blackouts again is an alarmist scenario with all sorts of consequences.

Although (I hate to point this out), smart meter functionality allows better targeting to disconnect households in the alarmist scenarios.

Not being able to afford fuel is not rationing.  Rationing is a supply-side control not a demand-side control.

Large scale energy users often have interruptible contracts - they won't be paid anything to reduce usage because they've already agreed to do it.

Electricity blackouts are unlikely, but are preferable to gas network shutdowns and would, therefore, happen first.  It's also relatively easy to trigger localised blackouts by switching in substations, and the mechanics of rolling blackouts are well-established in electricity grids of similar construction elsewhere in the world.

There is no tested and validated function to turn off smart meters on a mass scale for rationing (or any other purpose).

IanIanIanIanIan

ELECTRICITY SUPPLY EMERGENCY CODE (ESEC)

/assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/995049/esec-guidance.pdf

wrf12345

Some third world countries have a choice of meters, the lower ampage ones have cheaper rates and lower s/cs, and are much cheaper to run as long as you have no serious electrical appliances - it would blow if you ran an electric shower, for instance.

TheAble

[Deleted User] said:

northernstar007 said:

[Deleted User] said:

Not really.  You could set something up inside your own house to do it, but your smart meter can't control how much power you take - it can't turn things on and off for you.

not turn things on and off, just a simple theres 1kw of electric thats all your getting do what you want with it

But that's not how electricity works.  If you are using you 1kW and you turn something else on, what would you expect to happen?

There are systems that can do this sort of thing - like EV chargers that control themselves to not overload your house wires - but smart meters can't do it.  The EV system just turns down the charger when it notices other things are using power.

1 kwhr was what I think was meant. 

Can't see Sunak winning but this would make life difficult for those of us who work from home a few days a week. Yes we could go into the office but that's more cost and hassle.

[Deleted User]

TheAble said:

[Deleted User] said:

northernstar007 said:

Deleted_User said:

Not really.  You could set something up inside your own house to do it, but your smart meter can't control how much power you take - it can't turn things on and off for you.

not turn things on and off, just a simple theres 1kw of electric thats all your getting do what you want with it

But that's not how electricity works.  If you are using you 1kW and you turn something else on, what would you expect to happen?

There are systems that can do this sort of thing - like EV chargers that control themselves to not overload your house wires - but smart meters can't do it.  The EV system just turns down the charger when it notices other things are using power.

1 kwhr was what I think was meant. 

If you did, then that would just be the same as having a prepayment meter with only 1kWh credit on it.  I don't think normal smart meters have that function either - obviously smart prepayment meters do.

Grumpy_chap

Many business with high demand - manufacturing - have tariffs in place that are negotiated favourable rates in return for which there is an agreement that the energy supply can be switch off or restricted in times of shortage / supply stress. That is for gas and electricity.

In normal times, that has worked and been a cost-benefit-analysis for the business as the energy rates would have been lower than domestic rates.  When the business can operate with flexibility - making a product with shelf-life and not operating 24-7 production, then the interruption can simply be caught up by operating 24-7 for a period following the restriction being lifted.

Obviously, those businesses now, if they have exited the end of whatever agreements they had in place regarding energy rates, will now be operating with unit costs far in excess of domestic customers as the businesses do not benefit from the price cap.  It may be less palatable to both the business customer and the energy supplier to restrict supply to a high-paying customer.

Many businesses are also used to supply restrictions through TRIAD arrangements (punitive rates at peak hours) and have mechanisms in place to allow this to be managed.

One way or another I suspect it will be businesses that see the first impacts of energy shortage.

GingerTim

TheAble said:

Deleted_User said:

northernstar007 said:

Deleted_User said:

Not really.  You could set something up inside your own house to do it, but your smart meter can't control how much power you take - it can't turn things on and off for you.

not turn things on and off, just a simple theres 1kw of electric thats all your getting do what you want with it

But that's not how electricity works.  If you are using you 1kW and you turn something else on, what would you expect to happen?

There are systems that can do this sort of thing - like EV chargers that control themselves to not overload your house wires - but smart meters can't do it.  The EV system just turns down the charger when it notices other things are using power.

1 kwhr was what I think was meant. 

Can't see Sunak winning but this would make life difficult for those of us who work from home a few days a week. Yes we could go into the office but that's more cost and hassle.

It won't make a difference who wins, if rationing is ever required (and let's hope not) it will be required. Unless of course Truss's secret plan involves her bending the laws of physics.

SuboJvR

TheAble said:

[Deleted User] said:

northernstar007 said:

[Deleted User] said:

Not really.  You could set something up inside your own house to do it, but your smart meter can't control how much power you take - it can't turn things on and off for you.

not turn things on and off, just a simple theres 1kw of electric thats all your getting do what you want with it

But that's not how electricity works.  If you are using you 1kW and you turn something else on, what would you expect to happen?

There are systems that can do this sort of thing - like EV chargers that control themselves to not overload your house wires - but smart meters can't do it.  The EV system just turns down the charger when it notices other things are using power.

1 kwhr was what I think was meant. 

Can't see Sunak winning but this would make life difficult for those of us who work from home a few days a week. Yes we could go into the office but that's more cost and hassle.

South Africa has had blackouts (load shedding) for years.  It’s all planned and scheduled per zone, with the zone losing their electricity for say a 2 hour block.  And the timing of the block moves so it’s not the same area without power between 9-11am every day for example, it gets shared out.  It is disruptive, but it means people just do other things in that time before going back to work or whatever they were doing, and then working a bit later.

I am wondering how services like medical would be protected.  You don’t want MRI scanners losing their cooling for any length of time.  Linear accelerators are too powerful to really run off generators.  These services are often not in the same place as critical care services - people on ventilators and having emergency surgeries..