Grievance query

stig

I’m a bit confused because having read the thread a couple of times, I still have no idea what someone has done that has justified a formal grievance.

I understand that people have disagreed with you and your approach. However, it would make it much easier to comment if somewhere in this post it said “I said X and the other party responded Y”. It would be easier to comment.

whst we have at the moment though is “ I’m a reasonable person who wants to work with them” and “they are idiots who want to start victim blaming” - I’m not sure how anyone can form an opinion without some actual facts?

AliceBanned

Undervalued said:

caprikid1 said:

" really need the money as I am on £44k and can't earn that anywhere else, not easily anyway."

I think this is the problem, the more you prod and poke and raise grievances the less they will want to promote you as you are likely to be viewed as a trouble maker. Personally getting unions involved rarely is viewed positively within an organisation..

Sorry to here you are in the situation you are , I can imagine it's frustrating.

Why are you going to struggle to earn the same elsewhere ? If you get another pay rise you make a move even harder. 

I agree.

It depends a little on the type of organisation but, to a greater or lesser extent, that is generally true.

You may win the battle but in most situations you won't win the war.

Thanks I’ve learnt a lot through this process, including that unions don’t protect workers necessarily.

my union rep suggested an informal meeting and we went ahead with three. I was then still treated badly but with an outward appearance of better treatment. HR rep didn’t give a damn what was happening. I must have been naive as I was shocked my all of this and not finding fair treatment. I no longer expect this and realise there’s little room for manoeuvre.

my union rep had said an informal meeting should sort the issues as ‘they will know they are being watched’. This has been true only to an extent,  only to bring them to pay lip service to correct and fair treatment - they continue to manipulate so they can discriminate against me.

since these posts I’ve spoken to a colleague in my team who sees the corruption and is making his own complaint and in fact in many ways the manager has been worse in her treatment of him. It’s been enlightening talking to him and we now can give each other moral support. There are three of us now who over a long period of time have been ‘divided and ruled’ but we have at least now found where we all stand. We have all been fearing unfair dismissal and suffering emotional abuse..

AliceBanned

Thanks caprikid. Am looking at my options. I probably can earn enough elsewhere but for some time I’ve been in a ‘hole’ in this situation so need to find my ability to be valued again. I probably can if I try. My self belief has reduced a lot I think at mo.

AliceBanned

Ps colleague I spoke to yesterday said a solicitor could support me if things get worse. The union seemed to me to be in cahoots with HR, and my colleague thinks so too. V bad!!! At one stage I phoned the National union office and described the events. Union rep suddenly very responsive and supportive towards me and chatted for an hour. But he’s not truly on my side, he was in the room witnessing bullying and did nothing! That made me feel let down the most and really threatened and scared. Finding these colleague allies is better and we enjoy each other’s company too. 

AliceBanned

stig said:

I’m a bit confused because having read the thread a couple of times, I still have no idea what someone has done that has justified a formal grievance.

I understand that people have disagreed with you and your approach. However, it would make it much easier to comment if somewhere in this post it said “I said X and the other party responded Y”. It would be easier to comment.

whst we have at the moment though is “ I’m a reasonable person who wants to work with them” and “they are idiots who want to start victim blaming” - I’m not sure how anyone can form an opinion without some actual facts?

As mentioned as this may become a legal issue I wasn’t going into too much detail. The issue is relational abuse, blatant promotion blocking and harassment over a long period of time by three managers one above the other. I’m the oldest and most experienced team member and work very hard but have experienced bullying even in interviews and the organisation have themselves admitted I was scored lower than I should have been for one othe interview tests, yet done nothing and refused to share details of how I was graded in interviews saying no paperwork exists. There is a lot more than this but I’m not in a tribunal here I’m on MSE. All but the top director have changed immediately (the line manager left quickly) which demonstrates they knew they were creating a hostile work environment. Matters are ongoing and I am over time dealing with the personal impact of managers displaying hostile behaviour to mainly me but a couple of others, who are also beginning to speak up. 

flower77g

> not any agreed witnesses
> another restructure in a few months, with apparently no loss of jobs but we still have to apply for the jobs we want

Maybe consider - for your own mental health - getting out of this place.   Either find a role with another firm as soon as possible, or see if you can negotiate being made redundant in view of the next restructure with TU assistance.   If the workplace has mental health first aiders, consider speaking to them, and also the workplace and TU H&S representative.  The complaint you've outlined here (starting with concerns on promotion procedures - employer could say lots of people don't get promotion, nothing out of the ordinary here) could well be ruled in an employer's favour - probably more likely than in yours.  This is likely why the TU is treating this as informally as it can.  If you want to test this, phone any employment solicitor who takes cases on a no win no fee basis after an initial fixed fee, and see if anyone will take the case.   I strongly suspect the answer will be no.

elsien

AliceBanned said:

Ps colleague I spoke to yesterday said a solicitor could support me if things get worse. The union seemed to me to be in cahoots with HR, and my colleague thinks so too. V bad!!! At one stage I phoned the National union office and described the events. Union rep suddenly very responsive and supportive towards me and chatted for an hour. But he’s not truly on my side, he was in the room witnessing bullying and did nothing! That made me feel let down the most and really threatened and scared. Finding these colleague allies is better and we enjoy each other’s company too. 

Some unions reps are useless. But I think you need to try to keep a sense of proportion here as well otherwise you’re going to start telling yourself that everyone has it in for you. The union rep may be floundering slightly, or they may be seeing things differently to you. Either way seeing them as being hand in hand with HR isn’t particularly hekpful.
And in what way does your colleague think that a solicitor could be helpful? They don’t have the right to be present in proceedings in the same way that a union rep might. And going legal while in post is likely to really make management not want to touch you with a barge pole.
If your colleague thinks a solicitor is a good idea, should they not be going that route themselves? There is always a risk that colleagues are waiting to see how things go for you before deciding on their own path and tactics. 

AliceBanned

I am already looking for a new role. I don’t want to work there and some of them don’t want me but the fact is I’ve been loyal and hardworking so why should I lose out. Union rep said he doesn’t want me to lose my job! But not his place to say that.

But I’m not being driven out to just anything. There’s a lot more evidence including the line manager doctoring an email which was in my favour and removing the person’s comments in my favour, then forwarding to her manager and not thinking I’d notice. The collective evidence is a case but I agree it’s hard to prove overall as it was verbal a lot of the time which is why I’ve not taken it further so far and am carefully weighing it up. There are two witnesses but I’ve never asked them to get involved because all the time I wanted peaceful resolution and grievance would be a last resort. I’ve given the situation a chance but found myself up against some very unhealthy behaviours. 

The union rep has seen first hand the terrible aggressive manner from the manager towards me and was himself shocked. He said I’ve stayed professional throughout and they have not so I was puzzled by his sudden reticence at taking it further. 

I have asked for a further meeting with union rep and may ask about negotiating redundancy. I really want to avoid this but probably my fear of not getting a new role (I am 55) is unrealistic and based on fear. I live on my own with a big mortgage so have to consider my survival, unfortunately it feels at that level.

AliceBanned

Ps I’ve already phoned a solicitor and she was interested to hear more. I was trying to decide as getting her opinion would cost me around £400 but on initial chat (she’s employment lawyer) her response was positive but then she would say that I know.  I do feel confident in my case and am not deluded, I know I’ve been through abuse at work and have continued to work and stay professional. I have been doing as advised, gathering evidence but it is overwhelming as there is quite a lot. Of course I know it’s a balance and don’t expect to ‘win’ a case but some of the written evidence I have in particular clearly demonstrates something is amiss. It’s the pattern of behaviour overall, I’ve not been able to touch the surface here on the recruitment side of things.

Undervalued

AliceBanned said:

Ps colleague I spoke to yesterday said a solicitor could support me if things get worse. The union seemed to me to be in cahoots with HR, and my colleague thinks so too. V bad!!! At one stage I phoned the National union office and described the events. Union rep suddenly very responsive and supportive towards me and chatted for an hour. But he’s not truly on my side, he was in the room witnessing bullying and did nothing! That made me feel let down the most and really threatened and scared. Finding these colleague allies is better and we enjoy each other’s company too. 

Generally there is no right to be accompanied by a solicitor at a formal grievance (or disciplinary) meeting. There are a very few limited exceptions.

The right is to a work colleague or an accredited trades union representative at such formal meetings. At less formal meetings there is no right to be accompanied at all.

Obviously an employer may choose to be more flexible but, generally, they don't have to.

Also, they do not have to engage with any solicitor you choose to instruct.

Think very carefully before instructing a solicitor privately. It is your right but the moment you do your union will withdraw representation.

Some of the larger legal firms can provide a legally qualified person who is also an accredited trades union representative. In such a situation they would not be working on behalf of the union. All that matters is that they are accredited by a union.

Providing they are the employer cannot refuse to allow you to have that person accompanying you at a formal meeting.

However, it doesn't come cheap. I heard figures of £500 plus vat mentioned 15 years ago!