Cancelling a solar installation

Manxman_in_exile

I don't think the OP is on a winner here for the reasons* given by @Grumpy-chap on the previous page: it is neither a distance contract nor an off-premises contract, so there is no cancellation period to extend.

It's not a "distance" contract because it wasn't concluded exclusively at "a distance" (somebody came round to measure up*), and it's not an "off-premises" contract because the contract was not concluded in the simultaneous physical presence of both the OP and the trader.

Therefore it's an "on-premises" contract.  Therefore there is no right to cancellation.  Therefore there is no cancellation period to extend.

Whether the OP has some other cause of action based on misrepresentation or mis-selling or other contractual breach either under statute or common law is a different question.

But I'm quite happy to accept that I may be mistaken and more than happy to be corrected...


*If you take the view that by the trader measuring up the contract is "made to" the consumer's own specifications, then again there is no right to cancel...

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Manxman_in_exile said:

I don't think the OP is on a winner here for the reasons* given by @Grumpy-chap on the previous page: it is neither a distance contract nor an off-premises contract, so there is no cancellation period to extend.

It's not a "distance" contract because it wasn't concluded exclusively at "a distance" (somebody came round to measure up*), and it's not an "off-premises" contract because the contract was not concluded in the simultaneous physical presence of both the OP and the trader.

Therefore it's an "on-premises" contract.  Therefore there is no right to cancellation.  Therefore there is no cancellation period to extend.

Whether the OP has some other cause of action based on misrepresentation or mis-selling or other contractual breach either under statute or common law is a different question.

But I'm quite happy to accept that I may be mistaken and more than happy to be corrected...


*If you take the view that by the trader measuring up the contract is "made to" the consumer's own specifications, then again there is no right to cancel...

I don't know much about solar panels but would assume they are like a custom PC build, various off the shelf components put together and "measuring up" is to see how many will fit rather than having panels manufactured to specific sizes. 

I'm sure Unholyangel said in the past that for the limits to apply they need to be given as part of the information, they do fall within regulations 27 to 38 but whether they are taken to be or not I don't know. I assume if the trader doesn't state the limits as part of the information then they aren't part of the contract but couldn't say for sure. 

If I were the OP I'd ask the credit provider what type of contract they have, they might say it's outside their remit but given they are equally liable you'd think they'd know such things even if only to reduce their own liabilities. 

I think it depends on when the contract was actually formed but that could end up in a he said, she said argument. 

All this aside the OP is probably on better ground looking at the actual set up, I've heard a good few people say solar doesn't specifically need sun and can generate in just day light but presumably there are layouts where the time taken to recover the cost would be excessive and as such wouldn't be advised. 

Perhaps OP can say if the company gave anything detailing exactly what was to be installed?  

ComicGeek

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

I don't think the OP is on a winner here for the reasons* given by @Grumpy-chap on the previous page: it is neither a distance contract nor an off-premises contract, so there is no cancellation period to extend.

It's not a "distance" contract because it wasn't concluded exclusively at "a distance" (somebody came round to measure up*), and it's not an "off-premises" contract because the contract was not concluded in the simultaneous physical presence of both the OP and the trader.

Therefore it's an "on-premises" contract.  Therefore there is no right to cancellation.  Therefore there is no cancellation period to extend.

Whether the OP has some other cause of action based on misrepresentation or mis-selling or other contractual breach either under statute or common law is a different question.

But I'm quite happy to accept that I may be mistaken and more than happy to be corrected...


*If you take the view that by the trader measuring up the contract is "made to" the consumer's own specifications, then again there is no right to cancel...

I don't know much about solar panels but would assume they are like a custom PC build, various off the shelf components put together and "measuring up" is to see how many will fit rather than having panels manufactured to specific sizes. 

All this aside the OP is probably on better ground looking at the actual set up, I've heard a good few people say solar doesn't specifically need sun and can generate in just day light but presumably there are layouts where the time taken to recover the cost would be excessive and as such wouldn't be advised. 

Perhaps OP can say if the company gave anything detailing exactly what was to be installed?  

There would be a design for the solar PV system, which would be bespoke for that particular property. Yes it would use off the shelf components, but might not be equipment that can then be used for the next job. 

The OP has an incorrectly installed system whereby any direct morning/afternoon sunlight falling on the east/west panels isn't usable as they have incorrectly cabled the 2 roofs together - any shading on one side negates the sun shining on the other. Frankly an absurd mistake for a PV company to make, so something significant to be fixed - can't be left as is, as the annual generation is going to be significantly reduced, and the payback for the system massively extended.

You need direct sunlight on panels to create significant elec generation. My system can produce about 1 kW on a cloudy day, and 4 kW on a sunny day - it's the sunny days that provide the most savings.

InkZ

Manxman_in_exile said:

I don't think the OP is on a winner here for the reasons* given by @Grumpy-chap on the previous page: it is neither a distance contract nor an off-premises contract, so there is no cancellation period to extend.

It's not a "distance" contract because it wasn't concluded exclusively at "a distance" (somebody came round to measure up*), and it's not an "off-premises" contract because the contract was not concluded in the simultaneous physical presence of both the OP and the trader.

Therefore it's an "on-premises" contract.  Therefore there is no right to cancellation.  Therefore there is no cancellation period to extend.

Whether the OP has some other cause of action based on misrepresentation or mis-selling or other contractual breach either under statute or common law is a different question.

But I'm quite happy to accept that I may be mistaken and more than happy to be corrected...


*If you take the view that by the trader measuring up the contract is "made to" the consumer's own specifications, then again there is no right to cancel...

Reading through everything again, I fear you are correct and it's classified as an on-premises contract.  That's ridiculous as the whole thing was quoted by phone/email beforehand, someone popped over checked the house and then the contract was concluded by phone the following day on exactly the same quote.  I was really hoping this would just make things easier and provided a clear cut breach.

I have the following list of stuff to complain about:

1) They told me I didn't need optimisers because there's no shading.  This made me discount another quote for there's and left me with a sub optimal system.  This is going to be next to impossible to prove as it was all on the phone.

2) They said they could provide an MCS certified install because they had certified subcontractors that would be booked on my job.  I later found out that not only are subcontractors not allowed to certify a job they don't hold the contract for, but no MCS certified installers were even working on my install.  They are literally buying the certificates off of someone else.  I did stipulate on Email when accepting the quote (before the survey) 'As discussed, as long as we can have the install MCS certified'.  

3) MCS standard haven't been followed.  No wind loading calcs, not enough hooks installed, felt pierced, tiles lifted, panels not supported and clamped in correct places.

3) The system on my quote is completely different to what has been installed.  It's not even the same brand.  I didn't even notice this at first.

I spent ages researching this stuff as well, I've no idea how I messed up so bad.  The options are try to work with the installer and pay them more money or try and get section 75.  If my section 75 fails, then I'm stuck with what I have without shelling out a fortune for scaffolding again.  I don't even want them on my roof after the cowboy job they've done up there.

Undervalued

InkZ said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

I don't think the OP is on a winner here for the reasons* given by @Grumpy-chap on the previous page: it is neither a distance contract nor an off-premises contract, so there is no cancellation period to extend.

It's not a "distance" contract because it wasn't concluded exclusively at "a distance" (somebody came round to measure up*), and it's not an "off-premises" contract because the contract was not concluded in the simultaneous physical presence of both the OP and the trader.

Therefore it's an "on-premises" contract.  Therefore there is no right to cancellation.  Therefore there is no cancellation period to extend.

Whether the OP has some other cause of action based on misrepresentation or mis-selling or other contractual breach either under statute or common law is a different question.

But I'm quite happy to accept that I may be mistaken and more than happy to be corrected...


*If you take the view that by the trader measuring up the contract is "made to" the consumer's own specifications, then again there is no right to cancel...

Reading through everything again, I fear you are correct and it's classified as an on-premises contract.  That's ridiculous as the whole thing was quoted by phone/email beforehand, someone popped over checked the house and then the contract was concluded by phone the following day on exactly the same quote.  I was really hoping this would just make things easier and provided a clear cut breach.

I have the following list of stuff to complain about:

1) They told me I didn't need optimisers because there's no shading.  This made me discount another quote for there's and left me with a sub optimal system.  This is going to be next to impossible to prove as it was all on the phone.

2) They said they could provide an MCS certified install because they had certified subcontractors that would be booked on my job.  I later found out that not only are subcontractors not allowed to certify a job they don't hold the contract for, but no MCS certified installers were even working on my install.  They are literally buying the certificates off of someone else.  I did stipulate on Email when accepting the quote (before the survey) 'As discussed, as long as we can have the install MCS certified'.  

3) MCS standard haven't been followed.  No wind loading calcs, not enough hooks installed, felt pierced, tiles lifted, panels not supported and clamped in correct places.

3) The system on my quote is completely different to what has been installed.  It's not even the same brand.  I didn't even notice this at first.

I spent ages researching this stuff as well, I've no idea how I messed up so bad.  The options are try to work with the installer and pay them more money or try and get section 75.  If my section 75 fails, then I'm stuck with what I have without shelling out a fortune for scaffolding again.  I don't even want them on my roof after the cowboy job they've done up there.

As I said in my earlier posts, I am sure you may have very valid complaints about the installation. 

I think you need to get an expert report detailing all of the design and installation problems. Normally it is expected that you give the installers one opportunity to fix the problems, however if it is extreme enough it may be reasonable to get somebody else and deduct the cost from their bill (or sue them for that amount of money if you have already paid).

I would concentrate your efforts in that direction rather than in the feint hope of a technical refund under section 75. Even if (big if) you were able to get that the installers would be entitled to remove everything they had installed and would you be happy with them doing that without (further) damage? 

Edited to add...

There are some regular helpful posters in this section of the forum....

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/categories/green-ethical-moneysaving

Where advice on solar systems is somewhat hidden!

However I suspect you will still need an expert report to take this forward. Is it worth contact the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors?

Manxman_in_exile

@InkZ -  as you have gathered there is a difference of opinion as to whether you've got any cancellation rights at all, let alone an extended cancellation period.

@Grumpy_chap thinks it's definitely neither a distance contract nor an off-premises contract, while @the_lunatic_is_in_my_head believes (I think) it might be a distance contract or off-premises contract, and therefore cancellable, depending on the exact circumstances of how you entered into the contract and what the "measuring up" amounted to.

On reflection, I think @Grumpy_chap's view is probably the better one, and there is no cancellation route.  But I don't think it's a clear-cut issue.

And as @Undervalued has laid out, even if the contract could be cancelled, it's not clear what your remedy is.  Normally I think you'd give them a chance to put the installation "right", but I don't think you'd want that.  And if you got your money back, the installer would want everything back and I'm not sure how you'd be able to enforce them reinstating your house.  It would be a mess and a nigtmare for you.

As per @Undervalued, your best bet sounds like a straightforward contract claim based on mis-representation, unsatisfactory installation, breach of contrcat, or whatever.  Your credit card provider would be equally liable under s75.  (But the problem I see is that you may have agreed to a "bad" contrcat in the first place, and that's what they delivered... )

I'd be inclined to ask your local CAB for advice as I bet they get this sort of problem all the time.

Grumpy_chap

Manxman_in_exile said:

@InkZ -  as you have gathered there is a difference of opinion as to whether you've got any cancellation rights at all, let alone an extended cancellation period.

@Grumpy_chap thinks it's definitely neither a distance contract nor an off-premises contract, while @the_lunatic_is_in_my_head believes (I think) it might be a distance contract or off-premises contract, and therefore cancellable, depending on the exact circumstances of how you entered into the contract and what the "measuring up" amounted to.

On reflection, I think @Grumpy_chap's view is probably the better one, and there is no cancellation route.  But I don't think it's a clear-cut issue.

And as @Undervalued has laid out, even if the contract could be cancelled, it's not clear what your remedy is.  Normally I think you'd give them a chance to put the installation "right", but I don't think you'd want that.  And if you got your money back, the installer would want everything back and I'm not sure how you'd be able to enforce them reinstating your house.  It would be a mess and a nigtmare for you.

As per @Undervalued, your best bet sounds like a straightforward contract claim based on mis-representation, unsatisfactory installation, breach of contrcat, or whatever.  Your credit card provider would be equally liable under s75.  (But the problem I see is that you may have agreed to a "bad" contrcat in the first place, and that's what they delivered... )

I'd be inclined to ask your local CAB for advice as I bet they get this sort of problem all the time.

Thank you - that's a very helpful post given the variations in opinion as to whether cancellation is an option and also explains to the OP what the difficulties would be if cancellation is possible.

A practical solution might be if the installed solution can be upgraded to add a Solar Edge (or similar) optimiser to allow the east and west faces to be used as the panels are already in place now.  This is likely to cost the OP more money so would be a bitter pill to swallow.  It might be the most pragmatic pill as they all seem to be sour in one way or another.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Manxman_in_exile said:

while @the_lunatic_is_in_my_head believes (I think) it might be a distance contract or off-premises contract, and therefore cancellable, depending on the exact circumstances of how you entered into the contract and what the "measuring up" amounted to.

I'm not sure, if the OP phoned up, got a quote and agreed then it must be a contract formed at a distance. The problem with this is how do they quote without measuring, I think it may have been an estimate.

If the measuring up person said yeap that's £5k what do you think and OP agreed is this not off premises?

If the measuring up person didn't say anything and OP phoned back the next day and agreed are we not back to a distance contract?

If the measuring up person said yeap that's £5k, call the office tomorrow then we are probably heading towards on-premises as a price was given but agreed after the trader left.

If I'm incorrect or missing anything feel free to say  

If the OP can cancel and does there's no need to allow a repair but as before I don't know who covers the costs of uninstalling the goods. 

It would be interesting to know what would happen if the bank paid out under S75 (for whatever reason), I'm guessing the bank doesn't want a bunch of solar panels but equally OP probably doesn't want them (in their current set up) either.

With regards to fixing the issues, the OP has paid for three things I think:

1) Design of the system
2) The goods
3) The installation 

From what the OP says the company have failed on all 3. Are they going to install expensive equipment mentioned above by Comic to get it to run efficiently? Are they going to take it all off and start again? 

Typically the trader has an attempt to fix but due to the mess and possible expense I can't see the company actually doing it unless they bodge it somehow in the hope OP then goes away. 

powerful_Rogue

What's the name of the solar company?

Manxman_in_exile

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

while @the_lunatic_is_in_my_head believes (I think) it might be a distance contract or off-premises contract, and therefore cancellable, depending on the exact circumstances of how you entered into the contract and what the "measuring up" amounted to.

I'm not sure, if the OP phoned up, got a quote and agreed then it must be a contract formed at a distance. The problem with this is how do they quote without measuring, I think it may have been an estimate.

If the measuring up person said yeap that's £5k what do you think and OP agreed is this not off premises?

If the measuring up person didn't say anything and OP phoned back the next day and agreed are we not back to a distance contract?

If the measuring up person said yeap that's £5k, call the office tomorrow then we are probably heading towards on-premises as a price was given but agreed after the trader left.

If I'm incorrect or missing anything feel free to say  

...

I understand what you're saying, but (1) I don't think it can be a distance contract because any attendance by the bloke measuring up means that not all the steps leading up to the conclusion of the contract were exclusively conducted at a distance, and (2) I don't think it can be off-premises either because the OP says it was "organised" over the 'phone, so I presume that he and the supplier were not simultaneously in each other's physical presence when the contract was concluded.

I agree that without knowing exactly the steps leading up to formation of the contract it's a bit of a guessing game (eg what does "organised" mean; what does "measuring up" mean) but based on what the OP has actually told us, I think it's perhaps more likely to be on-premises rather than anything else.

But I also might be wrong or missing something obvious... 

The OP may have some other valid contract claim against the supplier, but I think it's unlikely they have a claim to cancel the contract.