Planning permission advice needed

newsgroupmonkey_

We can't use PD. Our local Parish council say so in our deeds.

No, we don't live in a conservation area

No, there isn't particularly a good reason to do so.

No, the PC shouldn't stop us doing anything that's classed as PD

Yes, it appears they did stop the previous owners trying to build an extension (although personally, I would have appealed - it was a poor reason for saying no).

fandyman

Thank you for replies from your personal example newsgroupmoneky_.

user1977

fandyman said:

I've also contacted an insurance broker and was told they will not be able to insure the house if it does not have the build regs for the steel beam works.

He said I might find another insurance company that would cover that (might be difficult) until the build regs approval is in place.

Sorry, but this sounds like nonsense - though it is quite a common urban myth. I've never seen a buildings insurance proposal form which asks questions along these lines. And a huge proportion of properties lack (provable) building regs approval for past works.

Bear in mind though that buildings insurance won't help you if there is a problem - if the place falls down because of shoddy workmanship etc, that isn't an insured risk.

fandyman

Section62 said:

fandyman said:

I do not know whether PD rights were removed before the conservatory was built. Was asking myself the same question. I guess I would not know that unless I contacted the council which I am trying to avoid. Yes I think we would want to rebuild the conservatory from the bricks up as as you say the polycarbonate roof and the wooden window frames are begging to rot. For some reason the seller put underfloor heating in conservatory as well as the new flooring but did not bother to replace the windows with the rotting wooden frames and the rotting roof which is very strange...

If you are already in touch with the council over building control regularisation then I'm not sure if it would make a difference asking planning about the PD rights removal.  I guess it depends on the wording of any indemnity policy you may (be required to) obtain.

It is a serious concern to us and we requested the seller to apply for retrospective approval. He has done that now and does not want to continue with the application offering us a discount on the house as he has to complete his other purchase abroad. We, however, were able to see the beam from the photos at the time it was installed and are satisfied with the quality of work (we do know, however, this has to be also confirmed by the building control investigations). We do not think there is any other issue lurking as we had a very detailed look but who knows...

As well as a beam being present, the size of the beam is important, as is the method of support at both ends.  Just knowing they put a beam in isn't sufficient.

If a regularaisation process is already underway there is really no feasible option other than to complete this now.

For the conservatory would it require planning permission if we decided to replace just the windows and roof leaving the brickwork as is making it a like for like restoration? Since it never had any planning permission in the first place would we need planning permission in the future to just restore it?

It could be argued either way.  I would take the view that demolition of (say) 70% of the structure and building something similar (replacing wood for uPVC isn't necessarily like-for-like) is an operation for which planning consent would normally be required (in the absence of PD rights).

Generally I'd suggest people don't go to more extreme lengths to avoid making a planning application and end up with a sub-optimal result.  Ideally you'd start with a blank piece of paper and design what you want, then see whether planning consent is required.  The important point in your case is that this approach (which requires contact with the planners) is typically incompatible with an indemnity policy - therefore any advice you get along the lines of 'get an indemnity and don't worry about it' leaves you in a position where you may not be able to (re)build the conservatory you want without voiding the indemnity.

Thanks again for your replies.

We are not planning to apply for indemnity insurance for the conservatory as we will be planning on fixing/rebuilding it in the not so far future.

I guess your point means if we ever want to refurbish it we may open ourselves to some more works as we have no knowledge how it was done and whether we can reuse some percentage of it (i.e. brickwork). Anyone aware whether we can get any penalties for the previous owners not applying for planning permission (conservatory and back and front window replacements) and if we go ahead with the purchase what is the process with planning permission to get it reinstated properly?

Our main concern now is finding insurance company that is prepared to insure the house knowing there is ongoing regularisation application which might be tricky. Anyone has any experience with that?

fandyman

Thank you for all replies.

Knowing the property had the PD rights removed is there any way to find out what is still permitted without contacting planning permission? Is it ok to contact planning permission re that?

We think it is unlikely all permitted development rights were removed from the property. For example would reinstating the conservatory or installing a satellite dish require planning permission?

Waunakee

Personally I would be more concerned about your mortgage.

Lenders will normally require either regularisation or an indemnity policy to be in place before releasing funds.As your situation currently stands (from the info you’ve given regarding the removal of the load bearing wall) neither option is currently feasible.

fandyman

Ah ok I fully understand the situation now. That is why it is taking the solicitor ages now to get a confirmation from the lender. He is acting for the lender so he has to inform about everything including the regularisation application that is ongoing.

Thanks for that.

Section62

fandyman said:

We are not planning to apply for indemnity insurance for the conservatory as we will be planning on fixing/rebuilding it in the not so far future.

I guess your point means if we ever want to refurbish it we may open ourselves to some more works as we have no knowledge how it was done and whether we can reuse some percentage of it (i.e. brickwork). Anyone aware whether we can get any penalties for the previous owners not applying for planning permission (conservatory and back and front window replacements) and if we go ahead with the purchase what is the process with planning permission to get it reinstated properly?

No, my point was more that it isn't a good idea to tie yourself in knots in trying to avoid having to get planning permission by using PD rights to the maximum.  Sometimes people do odd things like sinking the floor level so they can get adequate headroom without the overall height of the building exceeding the PD maximum.

In your case I could see a potential risk that you might be mistakenly advised to work with the existing conservatory to avoid the need to apply for planning consent - for example, by only changing the windows rather than the roof, or by reusing the existing brickwork rather than extending it by a few feet.

Sometimes people get so focussed on being PD that they don't see the bigger picture, and the result is sub-optimal.

In other words, don't restrict yourself by starting the design from the point that the existing conservatory walls will be reused.  Start with the conservatory you want, and if that needs full planning consent then work out how to get that.

The only way you could get a penalty for the conservatory is if the council took enforcement action and you refused to comply with the enforcement notice.  On the basis of what you've said, the council is now time-barred from starting enforcement action, so you wouldn't be at risk of a penalty - unless the enforcement process had already started and the vendor hasn't told you about it.

fandyman said:

Knowing the property had the PD rights removed is there any way to find out what is still permitted without contacting planning permission? Is it ok to contact planning permission re that?

If you don't want an indemnity policy then there is no reason (from your PoV) not to contact the council.  The vendor might not be happy, but since the council are already aware of the wall removal and the vendor has contacted the council himself, the point is probably moot.

Personally, in your situation I would openly discuss the conservatory and PD rights with the council's planning department so I had it on record that they knew about it.  I'd probably go one step further and consider getting a Lawful Development Certificate for the conservatory (if it is clear that it wasn't built as PD).

Doozergirl

user1977 said:

fandyman said:

I've also contacted an insurance broker and was told they will not be able to insure the house if it does not have the build regs for the steel beam works.

He said I might find another insurance company that would cover that (might be difficult) until the build regs approval is in place.

Sorry, but this sounds like nonsense - though it is quite a common urban myth. I've never seen a buildings insurance proposal form which asks questions along these lines. And a huge proportion of properties lack (provable) building regs approval for past works.

Bear in mind though that buildings insurance won't help you if there is a problem - if the place falls down because of shoddy workmanship etc, that isn't an insured risk.

I wanted to bump this comment because it is pertinent, I agree with it and the OP appears not to have seen it as they talk again about insurance in a later post. 

OP, the entire house almost certainly pre-dates modern building regulations.  A lack of certificates cannot be an issue for insurers or virtually none of us will be insured. 

It isn't a question that they ask.  If you start raising it, you will be met with answers from people that aren't properly qualified to answer.  Do not raise it. 

Doozergirl

fandyman said:

Hi Doozergirl. Thanks for your replies.

I am not sure why the PD rights have been removed and to what extent. Can I ask the solicitor to explain that in more detail?

For the structural opening we have checked the company that have done it and were confident it is up to scratch from safety perspective. However, as you say, that alone may not be enough and I understand the proper checks will now be done by the council (the structural calculations etc). Surely they will send a structural engineer to investigate that, no? We just wanted the regularisation to be done by the seller instead of us but with the discount we agreed to take it on.

The council do not send a structural engineer. 

The process for supporting an opening in a structural wall is to hire your own SE, do the work, then the building inspector checks the steel against the SE's calcs. 

I suspect they will still want to do that, albeit it retrospectively.  Chip alway at the work at the top corners, reveal the steel and padstones.  Check steel conforms to calcs.  They won't do the calcs for you.  

If you hire a SE and they say 'yup, this is fine' then why do you really need someone potentially lesser qualified to tick the box? 

The safety is important, not really the certificate.