Planning permission advice needed

fandyman

Hi,

We are in a process of purchasing a house which had permitted development rights removed. The house is not a listed building.

If there is anyone on the forum with planning permission experience we would like to seek advice re the following points:

1. The house has recently had UPVC windows installed to replace the old wooden ones (less than 4 years ago). The windows are at the front and back of the house. They are like for like visually and were installed by FENSA registered engineer. The seller does not have planning permission paperwork. Is there anything required from the planning permission side of things for this past work?
   
   
2. The house had two fireplaces removed (chimney stacks not touched) and chimneys stacks blocked off with a plasterboard. If we proceed with the purchase we are planning to install ventilation to the blocked off chimney stacks. Is there anything required from the planning permission side of things for this past work? Do we need planning permission to install the ventilation for the blocked off chimney stacks?
   
   
3. The house has a conservatory built over 30 years ago. Its measurements are 3.05m x 3.91m = 11.9255m2. It is covered with a semi-transparent polycarbonate roof which has 2.8m at the highest point. It is not plumbed and is used for residential purposes only. The seller also says it looks like it is glazed with safety glass. It also does not front any public highway or footpath. The conservatory is heated via radiator and underfloor heating from the house but there is a power switch to switch off the underfloor heating. There is a 2.5m wide opening between the conservatory and the living room as the external doors were removed at some point in the past. If we proceed with the purchase we are planning to reinstate the doors to make it comply with building regulations. The seller does not have planning permission paperwork for the conservatory as he claims previous owners stated it did not require planning permission, building regulation approvals or certificates. Is there anything required from the planning permission side of things for this past work? Do we need planning permission to reinstate the external doors in future?
   
   
4. If we proceed with the purchase and want to change the windows in the conservatory to new UPVC ones (currently wooden) do we need planning permission?
   
   
5. We've requested the seller to obtain a retrospective building regulations approval for a removal of load bearing wall (a supporting steel beam was installed) that was done over 4 years ago. Is there anything required from the planning permission side of things for this past work?

We tried to contact council's planning permission department for general advise mentioning the above but they are asking for exact address which we are unwilling to give out. We are not the owners and also this would be breach of confidentiality.

Would anyone have any experience in this and could advise?

Any response appreciated.

Section62

fandyman said:

Hi,

We are in a process of purchasing a house which had permitted development rights removed. The house is not a listed building.

Is it all PD rights removed, or only some of them?

In general terms (assuming you aren't in a conservation area) -

1) No need for planning unless the original wooden frames were specified in the original application and there is a planning condition saying that subsequent alterations to the windows need to be approved.

2) No planning requirement if you don't alter the externally visible chimney.  You will need building control signoff, and ideally a structural engineer to check the stability of the walls with the chimneys removed.  This is especially important having had a loadbearing wall previously removed.

3) No planning needed to reinstate the doors from the main part of the house.

4) This one is tricky.  Were PD rights removed before the conservatory was built?  Making alterations to the conservatory may open a new opportunity for the council to take enforcement action (if they wanted to) and depending on the extent of the work it may become harder to prove that the conservatory was constructed as-is 'x' years ago.  TBH if it is over 30 years old and has a polycarbonate roof then I might question whether it is worth replacing just the windows.

5) Is the bigger issue from my POV.  You won't need planning consent, but if the building is relatively modern (implied by the removal of PD rights) then typically they are built with the least amount of structure the designer can get away with.  The removal of a loadbearing wall without BC oversight would be a serious concern to me, and would also lead me to wonder what else the owner (at that time) might have done which isn't yet apparent to you.

People may (with some justification) point out that the elapse of time means that no enforcement action can be taken.  However, from your point of view you need to think about whether you want to take on someone else's problem(s), and also be aware that (for example) getting an indemnity policy for the lack of planning for the conservatory would be pointless if you ultimately decide the best option is to replace the conservatory entirely - in which case when you get in touch with planners to discuss your new conservatory proposals, the indemnity policy will almost certainly be voided.

FreeBear

Section62 said: 2) No planning requirement if you don't alter the externally visible chimney.  You will need building control signoff, and ideally a structural engineer to check the stability of the walls with the chimneys removed.  This is especially important having had a loadbearing wall previously removed.

The way I read the OPs post, just the fireplaces have been removed. The chimney breasts & stacks are still in place. So no need to involve structural engineers and building control.

Adding vents top & bottom is a trivial job outside the scope if the local planning dept or building control. Just go ahead and fit cowls to the top of any unused pots, and a small vent near the base of the blocked up fireplaces.

fandyman

Section62 said:

fandyman said:

Hi,

We are in a process of purchasing a house which had permitted development rights removed. The house is not a listed building.

Is it all PD rights removed, or only some of them?

I am not able to answer that as I did not want to give out the full address to the council's planning department. Would that be a good idea?

In general terms (assuming you aren't in a conservation area) -

We are not in conservation area.

1) No need for planning unless the original wooden frames were specified in the original application and there is a planning condition saying that subsequent alterations to the windows need to be approved.

There was never any application AFAIK (checked on the planning portal of the council and no application there either). We also do not know whether any subsequent alterations to the windows need to be approved.

2) No planning requirement if you don't alter the externally visible chimney.  You will need building control signoff, and ideally a structural engineer to check the stability of the walls with the chimneys removed.  This is especially important having had a loadbearing wall previously removed.

No alteration to the externally visible chimney apart from the removal of two fireplaces and blocking of the chimney stack. I contacted building control and they said it would not need sign off as it is not altering the structure of the building.

3) No planning needed to reinstate the doors from the main part of the house.

Great - thank you.

4) This one is tricky.  Were PD rights removed before the conservatory was built?  Making alterations to the conservatory may open a new opportunity for the council to take enforcement action (if they wanted to) and depending on the extent of the work it may become harder to prove that the conservatory was constructed as-is 'x' years ago.  TBH if it is over 30 years old and has a polycarbonate roof then I might question whether it is worth replacing just the windows.

I do not know whether PD rights were removed before the conservatory was built. Was asking myself the same question. I guess I would not know that unless I contacted the council which I am trying to avoid. Yes I think we would want to rebuild the conservatory from the bricks up as as you say the polycarbonate roof and the wooden window frames are begging to rot. For some reason the seller put underfloor heating in conservatory as well as the new flooring but did not bother to replace the windows with the rotting wooden frames and the rotting roof which is very strange...

5) Is the bigger issue from my POV.  You won't need planning consent, but if the building is relatively modern (implied by the removal of PD rights) then typically they are built with the least amount of structure the designer can get away with.  The removal of a loadbearing wall without BC oversight would be a serious concern to me, and would also lead me to wonder what else the owner (at that time) might have done which isn't yet apparent to you.

It is a serious concern to us and we requested the seller to apply for retrospective approval. He has done that now and does not want to continue with the application offering us a discount on the house as he has to complete his other purchase abroad. We, however, were able to see the beam from the photos at the time it was installed and are satisfied with the quality of work (we do know, however, this has to be also confirmed by the building control investigations). We do not think there is any other issue lurking as we had a very detailed look but who knows...

People may (with some justification) point out that the elapse of time means that no enforcement action can be taken.  However, from your point of view you need to think about whether you want to take on someone else's problem(s), and also be aware that (for example) getting an indemnity policy for the lack of planning for the conservatory would be pointless if you ultimately decide the best option is to replace the conservatory entirely - in which case when you get in touch with planners to discuss your new conservatory proposals, the indemnity policy will almost certainly be voided.

Thank you for a quick reply.

I've provided replies to the points in italic inline above.

The seller offered us a discount on the property price and does not want to answer any more questions. It is take it or leave it situation now.

The house was built in the sixties.

For the conservatory would it require planning permission if we decided to replace just the windows and roof leaving the brickwork as is making it a like for like restoration? Since it never had any planning permission in the first place would we need planning permission in the future to just restore it?

We've called building control and confirmed that pending point 5) outcome (any remedial action would be covered from the discount we received but we think the works have been done correctly by a reputable company - even though no structural calculations were provided) the other issues are mostly planning permission ones if anything and from the building control POV nothing else requires action on condition that we reinstate the external doors between the conservatory and living room.

We have subsequent sale that is close to collapsing because of the issues with the house we are purchasing.

We are really confused whether to proceed or pull out and just finish the sale.

Section62

FreeBear said:

Section62 said: 2) No planning requirement if you don't alter the externally visible chimney.  You will need building control signoff, and ideally a structural engineer to check the stability of the walls with the chimneys removed.  This is especially important having had a loadbearing wall previously removed.

The way I read the OPs post, just the fireplaces have been removed. The chimney breasts & stacks are still in place. So no need to involve structural engineers and building control.

Yes, thanks. I meant to type "if the chimneys are removed".

Section62

fandyman said:

I do not know whether PD rights were removed before the conservatory was built. Was asking myself the same question. I guess I would not know that unless I contacted the council which I am trying to avoid. Yes I think we would want to rebuild the conservatory from the bricks up as as you say the polycarbonate roof and the wooden window frames are begging to rot. For some reason the seller put underfloor heating in conservatory as well as the new flooring but did not bother to replace the windows with the rotting wooden frames and the rotting roof which is very strange...

If you are already in touch with the council over building control regularisation then I'm not sure if it would make a difference asking planning about the PD rights removal.  I guess it depends on the wording of any indemnity policy you may (be required to) obtain.

It is a serious concern to us and we requested the seller to apply for retrospective approval. He has done that now and does not want to continue with the application offering us a discount on the house as he has to complete his other purchase abroad. We, however, were able to see the beam from the photos at the time it was installed and are satisfied with the quality of work (we do know, however, this has to be also confirmed by the building control investigations). We do not think there is any other issue lurking as we had a very detailed look but who knows...

As well as a beam being present, the size of the beam is important, as is the method of support at both ends.  Just knowing they put a beam in isn't sufficient.

If a regularaisation process is already underway there is really no feasible option other than to complete this now.

For the conservatory would it require planning permission if we decided to replace just the windows and roof leaving the brickwork as is making it a like for like restoration? Since it never had any planning permission in the first place would we need planning permission in the future to just restore it?

It could be argued either way.  I would take the view that demolition of (say) 70% of the structure and building something similar (replacing wood for uPVC isn't necessarily like-for-like) is an operation for which planning consent would normally be required (in the absence of PD rights).

Generally I'd suggest people don't go to more extreme lengths to avoid making a planning application and end up with a sub-optimal result.  Ideally you'd start with a blank piece of paper and design what you want, then see whether planning consent is required.  The important point in your case is that this approach (which requires contact with the planners) is typically incompatible with an indemnity policy - therefore any advice you get along the lines of 'get an indemnity and don't worry about it' leaves you in a position where you may not be able to (re)build the conservatory you want without voiding the indemnity.

fandyman

Thank you for your replies. Will go over them shortly.

I've also contacted an insurance broker and was told they will not be able to insure the house if it does not have the build regs for the steel beam works.

He said I might find another insurance company that would cover that (might be difficult) until the build regs approval is in place.

I just wonder how the lender is able to lend on a house without building regs approval (and may soon find out from my solicitor they cannot lend on it as still waiting for the offer confirmation after price reduction) but the home insurance company cannot.

babyblade41

I think you have probably involved a couple too many bodies (ie insurance, council) before getting the facts first .

What has your solicitor advised about all of your concerns so far?

If the owner refuses to answer any more questions then does the price reflect what may or may not need addressing.

fandyman

Initially we were very firm that in order to progress we can only accept retrospective approval from building control (for the steel beam works and the conservatory opening to living room) and will refuse the indemnity policy. We felt like these were the biggest issues (structurally) and felt that we did not want to be buying the seller's problems. The seller only agreed to the steel beam retrospective approval which we only found out few weeks later. He became impatient again and suddenly said he can offer a discount (his purchase abroad is falling apart) as he does not wish to wait any longer. We have accepted the discount (in tens of thousands) last week as we thought this would cover the remaining structural works but you can never be sure. Buying a house is like buying a pig in a poke...

I have obviously not provided any house details to the insurance broker - it was a hypothetical call to enquire whether the house is at all insurable.

Solicitor is currently waiting for a bank to confirm the mortgage still stands (just the price reduction really but makes me think they might be unhappy about the retrospective approval being in progress as well...).

The rest of the very generic response from my solicitor also said they would advise client not to proceed until relevant docs are issued and all matters attended to as necessary. They also said if I wish to proceed now they will take that as my consent and will not take any legal liability as to possible issues that may arise from the said. Basically that this is my decision entirely.

The owners are threatening to pull out now and we are at crossroads...

Doozergirl

A discount of tens of thousands for this sort of stuff sounds amazing, frankly.  They're not huge issues.   Section62 is a knowledgeable poster, has the bases covered and is also probably the most fastidious in terms of 'what ifs' whereas I'm more pragmatic - the conservatory planning issue hasn't been an issue in 30 years, it isn't going to become an issue now - it would have become lawful development after 4 years.  The lack of doors bothers me from a heat loss perspective, but you're getting that sorted.  

Why were PD rights removed? And what PD rights were removed, it's unusual for all of them to be removed.   It might be possible to apply for permission for them to be reinstated.  

The only real issues there surrounds the structural opening - which you could have checked by a structural engineer once you move in.  The issue here isn't really the paperwork for building regulations, it's whether it's safe.   So you can go for regularisation but you'd be quite unusual in demanding it from the vendor.  It's the structural engineer that is the qualified one to assess it and the vendor is compensating you for the trouble.  

Even if the joist isn't good enough, most of the hard work and mess has already happened.  It won't be expensive to replace - if it needs it.    

fandyman

Hi Doozergirl. Thanks for your replies.

I am not sure why the PD rights have been removed and to what extent. Can I ask the solicitor to explain that in more detail?

For the structural opening we have checked the company that have done it and were confident it is up to scratch from safety perspective. However, as you say, that alone may not be enough and I understand the proper checks will now be done by the council (the structural calculations etc). Surely they will send a structural engineer to investigate that, no? We just wanted the regularisation to be done by the seller instead of us but with the discount we agreed to take it on.