And now the forecasters are saying the price cap could hit £6000

littleteapot

Mstty said:

Yeah those nasty people, many that worked up from nothing and took risks setting up businesses  put in multiple 20+ hour days and employing people and so on and so on.

What total bankers lol with their large homes and EV's

We all have a stereotype to blame is the point of the above and the above refers to my parents. They had nothing worked more than 20 hour days and for over 20 years employed over 20 staff. They deserve what they have now.

Many of this type of people have put a great deal back into the community through their financial rise and a lot will have filtered down into other people and their financial rise.

It's not quite as simple as looking at a big house with all the toys and being envious as you don't know the story behind it.

I don't think I said anything bad about that generation in my last post. I may have done in an earlier post and apologised for that.

I was simply citing an example of how the uptake of EVs will probably result in little impact on grid demand in the summer but possibly a lot more in winter.

Section62

littleteapot said:

I was simply citing an example of how the uptake of EVs will probably result in little impact on grid demand in the summer but possibly a lot more in winter.

Only if it holds true that people buying EV's also get solar panels in conjunction.  That's fairly unlikely.

The impact on grid demand won't vary much between summer and winter, although there may be a modest effect of people using vehicles more in colder winter months and less in warm summer months (when walking and cycling typically increase in popularity).

What does vary is the contribution of different generation sources on the supply side. And in that regard solar poses a significant challenge regardless of the take up and use of EV's.

littleteapot

Section62 said:

littleteapot said:

I was simply citing an example of how the uptake of EVs will probably result in little impact on grid demand in the summer but possibly a lot more in winter.

Only if it holds true that people buying EV's also get solar panels in conjunction.  That's fairly unlikely.

The impact on grid demand won't vary much between summer and winter, although there may be a modest effect of people using vehicles more in colder winter months and less in warm summer months (when walking and cycling typically increase in popularity).

What does vary is the contribution of different generation sources on the supply side. And in that regard solar poses a significant challenge regardless of the take up and use of EV's.

In the area live, at least 50% of houses that I pass when walking and cycling to an from work which have an EV on the driveway also have solar panels. There may be more EVs which are already out for work but as this area is very popular for people to move to for retirement, a lot of the cars don't leave home until after 09:00 on weekdays.

However like you say, that pattern won't be repeated everywhere.

shinytop

Mstty said:

wild666 said:

Mstty said:

The simplistic for those that can is "use less"

Learn what everything costs and put a sticky note on it with the cost and decide if you want to turn it on.

For those that can't there are extra funds and each energy company has their dedicated hardship fund. Plus more help is on the way.

As I have said many times before lots of energy users need this major shock to reduce their energy usage.

I think that we are going to see the average usage figures take a drop to 2700 kWh of electric or less and gas usage drop to 9000 kWh or less over the next 12 months or so. Many people are going to seriously cut their usage of both electric and gas as the prices per kWh go up. Many will turn off their gas usage hours earlier and reduce the boiler and thermostat temperatures. Other things they might do is use the TV less or not at all, although I would suspect less usage and more turning off at the wall socket of appliances they aren't using.

I do hope so as well as a positive consequence of high energy prices.

Reducing energy is good for the pocket and the planet.

Maybe people will go to bed earlier in the winter(I can see a baby boom here) and not have to hear.

There are so many ways to energy save that I get fed up.woth the constant call for the government to solve everyone's problems.

Targeted support where needed and education for those that are just wasteful.

All this rubbish about people.dying, put on more clothes, buy one or two specialised keep warm items.

This is one of the points the media and politicians skirt over.  The main thing that we need to do to get us through this situation (it's not a 'crisis' btw; people in Ukraine and Afghanistan are suffering a crisis) is to use less energy.  Not give people money so they can use the same amount of energy and not be any worse off.  The problem is that saying that openly would make any politician very unpopular.   

Of course some help is needed for some people but we should not be paying healthy people to heat their whole homes to 21 plus degrees this winter while they carry on as before.      

tghe-retford

QrizB said:

tghe-retford said:

Problem is, that is exactly what happened with the mobile phone network market in the early to mid 2010s. They priced out people and increased prices for people who could still afford their product.

I don't recall a government-mandated cap on mobile phone prices, though.

There isn't much scope (if any) for energy generators to increase the wholesale price of energy unilaterally, and energy retailers have a cap that's tied to the wholesale price.

In fairness, a mobile phone network contract is not anywhere near an essential as electric or gas. For one thing, you can't make use of an mobile phone without electricity.

But there will be ways to ensure any fall in demand does not result in a fall of profits. 

new_owner

I do find myself disagreeing with several posts on here.

We should not be asking people to cut back on energy use or use an extra layer of clothes to keep warm.

I look at the planning process for wind / solar farms and the associated costs that this entails and see the whole process is so broken I don't see how this will be fixed in the near future.

I do put the blame firmly onto the government. They have made the investment in renewables expensive, time-consuming and limiting. Energy self-reliance should have been part of this country's future for years and especially with leaving the EU, not making expensive appeasing handouts part of any policy or substitution or hoping that nothing would happen to change a markets.

Electricity needs to be so cheap and plentiful in the future that people can add a Heat Pump without worrying about the running costs or checking the usage of the fridge freezer and encouraging the use of EV's. How can this country hit Net Zero with this current government?

Why are new houses not built to a better standard? In this day and age, they should be almost self-sustaining for most of the year or in the summer producing more electricity than they can use. Why are there so few Battery Energy Storage Parks? Why not subsidise the cost of renewables more so there is more energy available? I realise that in winter this will be more limited but I would rather see investment in tidal than nuclear. Why is the ongoing issue of insulation still an issue? I see more houses without solar than with.

FIT was a mistake and only benefited those few who could afford the investment at the time. £5000 Heat Pump grant is another mistake and handing out large sums of money to try and reduce home users' energy costs, is yet another. The whole energy market needs to be re-done and properly invested in. If electricity was cheap people would naturally move over their heating/hot water to electricity as the cost of gas increased out of control and this is something that only the government can do.

I see people posting low electrical consumption and worrying about the future cost or seeing posts saying that we should be reducing our consumption. An EV or two and Heat Pump are going to be pushing consumption to numbers of 50kWh + per day per household. That's what £22 per day ish with the October price increase.

QrizB

new_owner said:

We should not be asking people to cut back on energy use or use an extra layer of clothes to keep warm.

Why, specifically, should members of the MoneySaving Expert forum not be recommending that people save money by using less energy?

Why are new houses not built to a better standard? In this day and age, they should be almost self-sustaining for most of the year or in the summer producing more electricity than they can use.

The Cameron governmeent cancelled the requirements for zero-carbon housing when they "got rid of all the green crap" in 2015.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jul/10/uk-scraps-zero-carbon-home-target

FIT was a mistake and only benefited those few who could afford the investment at the time.

FIT was a soaraway success, very popular with housing associations and rent-a-roof schemes opened it up to almost every homeowner. It served its purpose and created a domestic solar PV industry. You could argue that it could have been better managed and was terminated too early, but by no means was it "a mistake".

An EV or two and Heat Pump are going to be pushing consumption to numbers of 50kWh + per day per household. That's what £22 per day ish with the October price increase.

Both EVs and heat pumps are replacing other expenses.

If you put a kWh into an EV for 28p (soon to be 55p), it might take you 4 miles. In an ICE car those 4 miles would cost you 80-120p. Your electricity bill might be higher but your travel costs are lower.

Similarly, a kWh used in a heat pump is replacing 3kWh of gas / oil / LPG / electricity that would cost 23p / 24p / 25p / 84p.

k_man

QrizB said:

An EV or two and Heat Pump are going to be pushing consumption to numbers of 50kWh + per day per household. That's what £22 per day ish with the October price increase.

Both EVs and heat pumps are replacing other expenses.

If you put a kWh into an EV for 28p (soon to be 55p), it might take you 4 miles. In an ICE car those 4 miles would cost you 80-120p. Your electricity bill might be higher but your travel costs are lower.

Similarly, a kWh used in a heat pump is replacing 3kWh of gas / oil / LPG / electricity that would cost 23p / 24p / 25p / 84p.

That seems a bit of an overestimate, based on fuel costs only (as for the EV).

50p upwards seems more reasonable for an ICE for 4 miles

Or comparable, based on the next expected price increase.

new_owner

QrizB said:

new_owner said:

We should not be asking people to cut back on energy use or use an extra layer of clothes to keep warm.

Why, specifically, should members of the MoneySaving Expert forum not be recommending that people save money by using less energy?

Why are new houses not built to a better standard? In this day and age, they should be almost self-sustaining for most of the year or in the summer producing more electricity than they can use.

The Cameron governmeent cancelled the requirements for zero-carbon housing when they "got rid of all the green crap" in 2015.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jul/10/uk-scraps-zero-carbon-home-target

FIT was a mistake and only benefited those few who could afford the investment at the time.

FIT was a soaraway success, very popular with housing associations and rent-a-roof schemes opened it up to almost every homeowner. It served its purpose and created a domestic solar PV industry. You could argue that it could have been better managed and was terminated too early, but by no means was it "a mistake".

An EV or two and Heat Pump are going to be pushing consumption to numbers of 50kWh + per day per household. That's what £22 per day ish with the October price increase.

Both EVs and heat pumps are replacing other expenses.

If you put a kWh into an EV for 28p (soon to be 55p), it might take you 4 miles. In an ICE car those 4 miles would cost you 80-120p. Your electricity bill might be higher but your travel costs are lower.

Similarly, a kWh used in a heat pump is replacing 3kWh of gas / oil / LPG / electricity that would cost 23p / 24p / 25p / 84p.

Take your EV for example. you are correct however the increased cost of buying the EV over a petrol car to start with is negating these prices to start with. This makes the break-even time so long that the car never pays back. This is also assuming that someone can charge at home. The prices increases by ubitricity are going to be what people are paying to charge without a driveway in London - what's the betting this goes up again in October?.

Gas is projected to go to 14p? vs 45p? for electricity so even allowing for a SCOP of 3 then gas is still cheaper and a gas boiler is 1-2k vs 8-15k for a heat pump - more if the house requires oversized radiators/underfloor insulation etc + £5000 of public money.

I disagree FIT was an investment for those to make a sizable return. All subsidies should be of benefit to all. The energy should have been supplied back to the grid to lower the cost of electricity. A reduction in the solar panel's price would have been a better way to do this.

Sorry - it was a rhetorical question around new build housing. The question is we are now in 2022 and this is still not reversed - much has changed and there is simply no excuse.

I agree this is an energy saving forum and unfortunately, with the state of affairs, you can only say use less, wear something warmer. The message should be to move away from gas and invest in heat pumps / other electric heating / hot water to spend less money and not to be colder.

Its just a sad state - and not a message that anyone should be saying. However, this is not the fault of the majority of people - This is a fault of an incompetent government.

Apologies I wrote responses in reverse order :-)

QrizB

k_man said:

50p upwards seems more reasonable for an ICE for 4 miles

50p for 4 miles is 12.5p per mile. Petrol is £1.80 a ltire so 12.5p per mile would be 14.4 miles per litre, 65 mpg.

The average for a Ford Focus on fuelly.com is around 35mpg:
https://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/focus

Or for a Fiesta, maybe 40mpg?
https://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/fiesta