Landlord wants to give notice even before what break clause allows

DullGreyGuy

macman said:

DullGreyGuy said:

macman said:

DullGreyGuy said:

jaideep211 said:

Thanks all. I have no intention of breaking the agreement. I only requested that they allow me to stay until Jan (after the baby is here). 

To clarify, This is my second year in the property. My first 12 month period ended on May 14, 2022 after which I signed a new agreement for another 12 months with the same clauses as before (including break clause). My understanding is that this is a brand new agreement and therefore, the break clause period would stand on its own irrespective of the agreement signed in the prior year. 

Yes, if you signed a new contract the clause is relative to this contract unless there are explicit clauses about it being a continuation/extension. 

As others have said, you hold the cards and can be the bad tenant that waits to get kicked out by bailiffs and then you just need to think about your next reference. However you signed a contract accepting you could legitimately be asked to leave by 16th November and so either staying longer or leaving earlier is a negotiation. What extra are you willing to pay beyond the rent to stay longer? What does the landlord have to pay you to get you to leave earlier?

No. The OP can remain until his tenancy is ended, which can only be done by a court, or by him voluntarily doing so, with or without the LL paying him to do so. 
Why on earth do you suggest they should have to pay extra to remain until that happens?

Have you done private renting? Have you breached your contract and found how easy it is to rent again when the last landlord said they had to go to court to evict you? Have you seen how the council reacts when you can financially afford private rent but because you are a bad tenant they no one will trust you with their property?

This forum is very militant about ensuring landlords have to go to court to get rid of tenants but very silent on how that person then gets their next home.

The OP signed a contract saying their tenancy could end on the 15 November which is inline with legislation and is a unilateral decision of either party. They now want to stay on beyond that when the Landlord doesn't, if the OP doesn't want to burn their bridges then its a negotiation to allow them to stay beyond what the contract states OR they accept the consequences of being a bad tenant in their next rental.

It is not breach of contract. The STA merely states a period of notice required. It does not, repeat, does not end the tenancy.
The OP agreed a minimum notice period, not a 'tenancy end date'. 
You are correct in saying that a reference may not be forthcoming, but most savvy tenants would agree to move out before the PO or bailiff stage in return for a reference. if not, an absent reference is better than being homeless with a new baby due.
In many cases we see on here, relations have already broken down to an extent where the tenant is not likely to get a reference anyway.
This forum is neutral: it is only militant in making sure that both tenants and landlords know and comply with their contractual and statutory obligations. This is a classic case  of that not happening, where the LL appears to be giving notice by text message, a month before the date on which he could legitimately serve an S21.

Where in anything the OP has posted has suggested the relationship has already broken down? They state they are up to date with their rents and it is an unfortunate situation the owner of the property finds themselves in that has triggered the issue.

What do you think a notice period results in when it ends?

Even if the OP is "savvy" and moves out before the bailiffs attend what do you think the landlords reference will be like if the OP leaves at any time after the 15 November without the Landlord's willing consent?

The forum is very militant on certain subjects... and yes by the strict application of the law they are often right even if morally they are totally off. Imagine how dystopian the world would be if every person and corporation refused to comply with their contractual or moral obligations until a court order was received? 

jonnydeppiwish!

Op, in your position, I would ask the LL to either provide you the last month’s rent free or a cash payment to leave. You will be incurring significant costs having to leave because they need to move back in.

Even covering the cost of removals would be beneficial.  Use it as a bargaining tool, certainly don’t bend over backwards to help the all as you and your better half need to sorted first.

fourmarks

I echo the sentiments of Mr. Johnnydeppiwish. I think the main trick when seeking advice on this forum is to identify those posters who offer knowledgeable, calm and even handed advice. This is worth a little bit research and is time well spent. A desire to give quality advice purely for the benefit of others is a much more preferable characteristic than a need to give advice just to demonstrate ones knowledge, or lack thereof. I have no qualification to offer advice on the actual matter at hand, but I can see who is. 

saajan_12

Theoretical debates aside, people here often just know a fraction (S21 & S8G8) and regurgitate that as if the only possibilities. Unfortunately this is the critical point: 

jaideep211 said:

@saajan_12 Sorry. You are indeed correct. Just read the agreement in detail and found the following:

Notice is hereby given that possession might be recovered under Ground 1, Schedule 2 of the Housing Act 1988 if applicable.

That is, that the Landlord used to live in the Property as his or her main home; or intends to occupy the Property as his or her only or main home

So under that ground, you can be given 2 months notice at any time. After the 2 months, you don't have to leave but rather the LL may go to court (note there isn't even a contractual agreement to leave, it just says they'll use the statute so no theoretical debates needed!)

If the judge agrees that the condition has been met (and I'm not sure what proof they'd expect that the LL will move in) then possession is mandatory and you do have to leave by the possession date. 

I'd really advise you to start lookign now and then agree mutually with the LL on a convenient date so you don't have much overlap in rent. Maybe even negotiate some help with moving costs so you can pay the pros and your wife can relax on move day, in return for moving sooner. Neither moving with a young baby and stress from courts won't be any better than moving while pregnant. 

pinkshoes

Personally I'd be negotiating. 

Only a court can evict you...

I'd start looking for something else then ask for the LL to pay ALL moving costs given your partner will be heavily pregnant when you need to move. If they refuse then stay put until it is more convenient.

Ultimately you'll have to move at some point...

jaideep211

Hi All

Quick update. I have finally found a place and the new agreement starts only on Nov 24 (almost 5 weeks after notice to vacate expires). It has taken more time to find a reasonable place given my wife's pregnancy and therefore additional requirements etc. Plus things have been difficult to find a place given the sheer shortage of rental stock.  

I know the LL is not going to be happy about this (have already informed the agent about my date of move but have not heard back) but this is a situation I cannot help and I have been as reasonable as possible (not being difficult at all during my entire 1.5 years tenancy) 

My question is do I need to provide a notice regarding my date of vacating the property by post (in addition to the email I have already sent) and I should continue to pay the standard rent that I have been paying (I am assuming this goes without saying). 

Thanks!

doodling

Hi,

One of the following terminates a tenancy:
1. A notice from the tenant and their subsequent departure.
2. An order from a court and the tenant leaving.
3. Mutual agreement between three landlord and tenant as to when the tenancy terminates and the tenant leaving.

Note the the landlord issuing a s21 isn't on that list.

You are required to pay rent until the end of the tenancy so unless (2) or (3) apply then you need to give notice and rent will be due until the notice expires.

If the landlord has issued a s21 then they may be amenable to (3), but for your own protection make sure that that agreement is in writing and makes it clear what rent is due.

saajan_12

jaideep211 said:

Hi All

Quick update. I have finally found a place and the new agreement starts only on Nov 24 (almost 5 weeks after notice to vacate expires). It has taken more time to find a reasonable place given my wife's pregnancy and therefore additional requirements etc. Plus things have been difficult to find a place given the sheer shortage of rental stock.  

I know the LL is not going to be happy about this (have already informed the agent about my date of move but have not heard back) but this is a situation I cannot help and I have been as reasonable as possible (not being difficult at all during my entire 1.5 years tenancy) 

My question is do I need to provide a notice regarding my date of vacating the property by post (in addition to the email I have already sent) and I should continue to pay the standard rent that I have been paying (I am assuming this goes without saying). 

Thanks!

You can try to negotiate an early surrender with the LL on a mutually convenient date - try to convince them that leaving on this date with minimal overlap is the best option for everyone, otherwise you won't be able to afford to move and have to wait until court. Economically, it probably makes sense for the LL to agree, and if they do, make sure you get in writing:
* what date the tenancy will end
* what rents are payable between now and then
* what happens to the deposit

However legally they don't HAVE to agree, in which case your rights are as per teh contract. You can give notice as per the break clause, paying rent until the notice expires (and possibly that full month depending on how its worded. 

jj_43

The break clause would apply to the landlord, so you have two months.