Landlord wants to give notice even before what break clause allows

jaideep211

saajan_12 asked if there was a mention in either the agreement or prior communication that the landlord previously lived here or had the intention of moving back in, the answer is no. My agreement is pretty boiler plate and prior communication (while signing) was received as to the landlord's intention. 

macman

If 2 months notice is served correctly on or after 15/9/22 by way of an S21, and the tenancy is regularised, which many are not, then the earliest the OP can be asked to leave is 15/11/22. If not regularised, it's back to the start for the LL, and they must regularise and re-serve. Another 5 months minimum. If  they stay put, as they have every right to do, then the very earliest the LL would get a PO hearing is 15/2/23, and much more likely to be nearer 15/6/23. Then another month to an actual eviction date.
So they have absolutely nothing to worry about and just need to continue to pay rent. If they want to voluntarily leave soon after the baby arrives that is fine, but I would ask the LL to incentivise them to do so.

DullGreyGuy

grumiofoundation said:
The tenancy doesn’t end on that date. Please don’t post misleading information. 

That's the same as anything... dont pay your gas bill, dont pay your council tax... the liability still exists before the court order, the court order just creates new mechanisms for enforcement.

You also dont advise the OP on how they get their next private rental when their landlord for the last 18-24 months have had to go to court to evict them. Would you rent your home to someone you know you cannot get rid of?

macman

DullGreyGuy said:

jaideep211 said:

Thanks all. I have no intention of breaking the agreement. I only requested that they allow me to stay until Jan (after the baby is here). 

To clarify, This is my second year in the property. My first 12 month period ended on May 14, 2022 after which I signed a new agreement for another 12 months with the same clauses as before (including break clause). My understanding is that this is a brand new agreement and therefore, the break clause period would stand on its own irrespective of the agreement signed in the prior year. 

Yes, if you signed a new contract the clause is relative to this contract unless there are explicit clauses about it being a continuation/extension. 

As others have said, you hold the cards and can be the bad tenant that waits to get kicked out by bailiffs and then you just need to think about your next reference. However you signed a contract accepting you could legitimately be asked to leave by 16th November and so either staying longer or leaving earlier is a negotiation. What extra are you willing to pay beyond the rent to stay longer? What does the landlord have to pay you to get you to leave earlier?

No. The OP can remain until his tenancy is ended, which can only be done by a court, or by him voluntarily doing so, with or without the LL paying him to do so. 
Why on earth do you suggest they should have to pay extra to remain until that happens?

DullGreyGuy

macman said:

DullGreyGuy said:

jaideep211 said:

Thanks all. I have no intention of breaking the agreement. I only requested that they allow me to stay until Jan (after the baby is here). 

To clarify, This is my second year in the property. My first 12 month period ended on May 14, 2022 after which I signed a new agreement for another 12 months with the same clauses as before (including break clause). My understanding is that this is a brand new agreement and therefore, the break clause period would stand on its own irrespective of the agreement signed in the prior year. 

Yes, if you signed a new contract the clause is relative to this contract unless there are explicit clauses about it being a continuation/extension. 

As others have said, you hold the cards and can be the bad tenant that waits to get kicked out by bailiffs and then you just need to think about your next reference. However you signed a contract accepting you could legitimately be asked to leave by 16th November and so either staying longer or leaving earlier is a negotiation. What extra are you willing to pay beyond the rent to stay longer? What does the landlord have to pay you to get you to leave earlier?

No. The OP can remain until his tenancy is ended, which can only be done by a court, or by him voluntarily doing so, with or without the LL paying him to do so. 
Why on earth do you suggest they should have to pay extra to remain until that happens?

Have you done private renting? Have you breached your contract and found how easy it is to rent again when the last landlord said they had to go to court to evict you? Have you seen how the council reacts when you can financially afford private rent but because you are a bad tenant they no one will trust you with their property?

This forum is very militant about ensuring landlords have to go to court to get rid of tenants but very silent on how that person then gets their next home.

The OP signed a contract saying their tenancy could end on the 15 November which is inline with legislation and is a unilateral decision of either party. They now want to stay on beyond that when the Landlord doesn't, if the OP doesn't want to burn their bridges then its a negotiation to allow them to stay beyond what the contract states OR they accept the consequences of being a bad tenant in their next rental.

saajan_12

jaideep211 said:

saajan_12 asked if there was a mention in either the agreement or prior communication that the landlord previously lived here or had the intention of moving back in, the answer is no. My agreement is pretty boiler plate and prior communication (while signing) was received as to the landlord's intention. 

Tbh the notice would be included in every boiler plate agreement I've seen, so would really suggest checking carefully. 

If you really think it's not, then challenge the LA on that and saying you weren't informed prior to the tenancy starting, and make them show you the clause if they disagree. 
- Note you could keep silent and wait for court to spring this on them to cause the most pain, but on the off chance you missed a sentence, you could suddenly have very little time left. If you're right then they can't fix it now, and would have to revert back to the break clause, so you're not really 'giving the game away'. 

macman

DullGreyGuy said:

macman said:

DullGreyGuy said:

jaideep211 said:

Thanks all. I have no intention of breaking the agreement. I only requested that they allow me to stay until Jan (after the baby is here). 

To clarify, This is my second year in the property. My first 12 month period ended on May 14, 2022 after which I signed a new agreement for another 12 months with the same clauses as before (including break clause). My understanding is that this is a brand new agreement and therefore, the break clause period would stand on its own irrespective of the agreement signed in the prior year. 

Yes, if you signed a new contract the clause is relative to this contract unless there are explicit clauses about it being a continuation/extension. 

As others have said, you hold the cards and can be the bad tenant that waits to get kicked out by bailiffs and then you just need to think about your next reference. However you signed a contract accepting you could legitimately be asked to leave by 16th November and so either staying longer or leaving earlier is a negotiation. What extra are you willing to pay beyond the rent to stay longer? What does the landlord have to pay you to get you to leave earlier?

No. The OP can remain until his tenancy is ended, which can only be done by a court, or by him voluntarily doing so, with or without the LL paying him to do so. 
Why on earth do you suggest they should have to pay extra to remain until that happens?

Have you done private renting? Have you breached your contract and found how easy it is to rent again when the last landlord said they had to go to court to evict you? Have you seen how the council reacts when you can financially afford private rent but because you are a bad tenant they no one will trust you with their property?

This forum is very militant about ensuring landlords have to go to court to get rid of tenants but very silent on how that person then gets their next home.

The OP signed a contract saying their tenancy could end on the 15 November which is inline with legislation and is a unilateral decision of either party. They now want to stay on beyond that when the Landlord doesn't, if the OP doesn't want to burn their bridges then its a negotiation to allow them to stay beyond what the contract states OR they accept the consequences of being a bad tenant in their next rental.

It is not breach of contract. The STA merely states a period of notice required. It does not, repeat, does not end the tenancy.
The OP agreed a minimum notice period, not a 'tenancy end date'. 
You are correct in saying that a reference may not be forthcoming, but most savvy tenants would agree to move out before the PO or bailiff stage in return for a reference. if not, an absent reference is better than being homeless with a new baby due.
In many cases we see on here, relations have already broken down to an extent where the tenant is not likely to get a reference anyway.
This forum is neutral: it is only militant in making sure that both tenants and landlords know and comply with their contractual and statutory obligations. This is a classic case  of that not happening, where the LL appears to be giving notice by text message, a month before the date on which he could legitimately serve an S21.

jaideep211

@saajan_12 Sorry. You are indeed correct. Just read the agreement in detail and found the following:

Notice is hereby given that possession might be recovered under Ground 1, Schedule 2 of the Housing Act 1988 if applicable.

That is, that the Landlord used to live in the Property as his or her main home; or intends to occupy the Property as his or her only or main home

j2009

As I understand it your wife is due to give birth in December.

Contractually you know the break clause would mean you could be asked to leave by 15th November - you seem like a decent person and even though you'd like to stay longer I am sure you'd honour the agreement and move out just before the birth if they press you to.

Personally, I wouldn't want to drag all this angst into November/December and be doing a house move with a new baby in January so I'd be looking to move asap. If you wished to move in Jan that means finding a new house in December, there is limited rental turnover that time of year and so house hunting in December and waiting for the birth sounds like stress you won't need. I'd actually look to work with the LL and suggest you may be able to move out sooner if they are happy with that, don't become a bad tenant trying to hang in there until January, because that will make finding a new place harder.

Bottom line, think carefully about what will work best for you and your pregnant wife that fits with the terms of the agreement you have signed and the aspirations of the LL balance all these to get to the most amicable outcome. 

jonnydeppiwish!

DullGreyGuy said:

grumiofoundation said:
The tenancy doesn’t end on that date. Please don’t post misleading information. 

That's the same as anything... dont pay your gas bill, dont pay your council tax... the liability still exists before the court order, the court order just creates new mechanisms for enforcement.

You also dont advise the OP on how they get their next private rental when their landlord for the last 18-24 months have had to go to court to evict them. Would you rent your home to someone you know you cannot get rid of?

Please read the advice of others such as @macman - they actually know what they are talking about. 

It’s the tenant’s home, not the LLs - the only people who can end the tenancy is the tenants or a court.