is my neighbour trespassing

Bendy_House

One day I'll post my story.

DanDare999

Bendy_House said:

DanDare999 said:

Jeepers why do you post like this?

You accept there's an ongoing harassment, the police will think it's acceptable for the OP not to want any contact or to confront the neighbour given the circumstances so why do you keep repeating they should?

You claim personal experience, so how did you handle this when you were a cop?

I wasn't a cop - where did that come from? -but I was 'Jeepers' - some time ago - until I went a bit 'political' in a reply and was given a holiday.

We are short on detail on what Worried has actually done about this so far other than having called out the police (how often?) who were seemingly taken in by the lady, and  having had to have her keyed car repaired (again, no detail - did she manage to claim off this lady, for example?)

So, at the moment, this lady is doing all the successful intimidating, and Worried all the hellish, gut-wrenching, hand-wringing. 

The lady has the power. And that is almost certainly what is driving such sociopathic behaviour.

Worried's now wondering about putting up a fence to stop this trespass. Yes, a fair move, but what will the 'lady' make of this? A great deal of satisfaction, I'd imagine - at what she's made her victim do, and she'll also know that the victim will STILL be anxious, waiting for her next move.

So that's why I'm suggesting the power tables need to be turned, if at all possible. I'm not going to suggest it's easy, but once you decide to do it, a large weight WILL come off your shoulders.

And, no, not everyone will be up for this. But I bet a surprising number will, once they realise there is actually very little the miscreant can actually do when confronted in a calm manner.

It has to be part of protecting yourself by recording everything, certainly CCTV over all your property in a case where the person could try anything sly, but also a discrete recording of any face-to-face interaction. £13 on ebay...

You prepare for this;

1) You remind yourself, repeatedly, that this person can ACTUALLY CAUSE YOU NO PHYSICAL HARM. That's a biggie. So, what's the worst that can happen? You get a face full of abuse? Then, great - you have it recorded. If she DOES act in any way that's threatening, then great again - you'll have had her. 

2) YOU, on the other hand, remain resolutely calm, don't become emotional, but state very clearly what it is you need to say. If the person rants, great again - it's recorded. If they interrupt or try devious diversions (and I bet they'll be masters at this, which will tell you of their personality disorder), then you stop, look away from them, wait until they stop, and resume.

You try and put points in the form of questions; "Do you think it's ok to use someone else's gate without permission?" Whatever they reply with, it's a calm "Well, I'm making it clear that YOU do not have permission, due to your criminal and anti-social behaviour. Do you understand? Do you understand? Do you understand?" x as often as it takes.

3) Feel free to also describe everything else that this person has done. Literally list them, followed with "Do you think that's acceptable behaviour?!" To any denial, you reply unflinchingly, "YES, you DID."

All delivered in a calm, firm, loudish voice, so that any other neighbour who is out will overhear (but don't shout!) And, if they rant, you can slowly shake your head in disbelief and/or smile, whilst looking them straight in the eye.

No, this is unlikely to bring the issue to a halt on its own, but it will be the start of that process. And it'll also do at least two other things; it'll show this lady that you are NO LONGER intimidated by them (that is a biggie, and will shake them - because it tackles the root purpose of their actions), it'll show you as being in command and being VERY calm & reasonable in what you are saying as opposed to them, especially if they rant or say patently ridiculous things, and it'll provide evidence that this person has been told by you to behave, and to cease.

Walk away when YOU wish to. Any silly threats - like they'll call the police - reply, "that's fine - I have plenty to tell them". If she goes away, then you do so too.

It needs preparation - the things you can say, vs the things you shouldn't. It needs resolve to not be distracted by devious diversions - you bring the matter back to the point in hand.

And you do not avoid them from then on - if she is out when you are, just give her a glance long enough to show that you know she is there, but you do not detract from whatever it is you were going to do in any case. Ie, you act 'normally', however awkward you may feel, and let them do what they feel like - which will likely be to go in. If they stay out, that's fine, but they need to behave, as it'll all be recorded.

Once they do ANYTHING that's unacceptable, you get the LA involved, and - if serious enough - cursing and threatening behaviour - call the police.

Remind yourself again - this person cannot physically harm you. So, what does that leave? Ranting?! Great - you record it and report it. Property damage? You ditto.

You CAN turn around what is a pathetic 'power' game.

Terrible advice to the OP.

k3lvc

@DanDare999@Bendy_House can't you two just go and get a room somewhere and hug it out

Given the OP has been discussing same/similar issues on here for 6yrs I'm not sure any new advice is going to come from this vs previous posts

Bendy_House

k3lvc said:

@DanDare999@Bendy_House can't you two just go and get a room somewhere and hug it out

Given the OP has been discussing same/similar issues on here for 6yrs I'm not sure any new advice is going to come from this vs previous posts

A cyber-hug will have to do. At best.

Happy for DD to make his point, as I'm happy to counter if I have reason to believe I have a valid point.

My advice is not for everybody, that's fair enough, but it galls me to read these tales of dysfunctional people making other lives a misery.

I think I've learned a lot about human behaviour over the past few years, not much of it good. A large component of these socio/psycho's (my neigh ticks most of the boxes for the latter) make-up is often that they are cowards when they know they've been sussed. They are usually very plausible, and present themselves as 'good ol' folk' who are wrong-done by. Once they've done enough to allow this phony veneer to crack, they are not sure how to handle it, as I found recently with my neigh when I delivered my 3-pager; he and his wife, who I heard out on their drive as I approached, ran behind their motorhome and I had to entice them out; "Come out! Come Out! We need to talk about your behaviour!".

He was happy to do sneaky things below the radar, until I'd accumulated enough evidence to demonstrate BRD that he'd done them.

Twenty minutes later, I had a lovely recording of this guy's deviousness, was able to tell him he was a 'liar, cheat, and a criminal - all of which I can evidence', also captured his clumsy attempts at him trying to accuse me of harassment*, whilst inadvertently saying things that made it clear that is what he was doing, and even a ridiculous 'racist' remark (my unreasonable behaviour is because I'm not English...), and even trying to mock my lifestyle. There was little he didn't try - astonishingly inventive stuff - because I'd pretty much nailed him of what he'd ACTUALLY done, and he couldn't tackle that point. They finally retreated to the back of their drive, where they sat there cussing. Everything he said will count very badly against him should this go to court. He has exposed his true character.

I didn't know that the OP's issues have been going on for that long, tho'. :-(

*From an earlier attempt to approach to him when he was reversing out his drive. When he saw me, he drove off, leaving his wife and daughter (in her own car) behind. I told his wife (who is actually 'normal') how disappointed I was that he'd got her lying to the police now, and turned away. His daughter drove past and shouted out "YOU GOT WHAT YOU DESERVED!", which was a stupid admission of what her dad had done, that he'd been denying. 

I almost certainly I already had enough to take civil action against him (LegProt told me what to do to get the ball rolling), but who the hell wants to do that. Not enough evidence of the latest incident for the police to act (he'd been told to C&D a decade ago), tho' "It looks suspicious", and it remains on file.

I made it clear that "It stops NOW." And I will need to act if he's daft enough to try anything else. I am very confident that I have more than enough, including all these recordings.

GDB2222

Bendy_House said:

GDB2222 said:

I’m curious about why it matters so much that scary lady walks across worried's garden? Postie does it, and that’s fine with worried. Scary lady does it because it’s a shortcut. It’s a bit rude, I agree. Well, very rude, but it’s liveable with rudeness. 

Have you read the whole thread, GDB?

Based on what the OP has described, this isn't just a case of a lady walking across someone else's garden. It's a culmination of issues which should constitute nuisance if not actual harassment.

The OP has been a bit coy on detail, tho', such as what she's done about it so far. 

I understand that there's a previous history of bad behaviour here. But, this particular bit of bad behaviour is not too serious. It may be the straw that breaks the camel's back, so to speak, but on the whole it sounds like something that could be ignored. 

This particular bit of bad behaviour has been described by the OP as harassment, but it doesn't really seem like that. It's just somebody using a shortcut that they are not entitled to use. There's no deliberate harm to the OP's property as far as I can tell. 

DanDare999

Bendy_House said:

k3lvc said:

@DanDare999@Bendy_House can't you two just go and get a room somewhere and hug it out

Given the OP has been discussing same/similar issues on here for 6yrs I'm not sure any new advice is going to come from this vs previous posts

A cyber-hug will have to do. At best.

Happy for DD to make his point, as I'm happy to counter if I have reason to believe I have a valid point.

My advice is not for everybody, that's fair enough, but it galls me to read these tales of dysfunctional people making other lives a misery.

I think I've learned a lot about human behaviour over the past few years, not much of it good. A large component of these socio/psycho's (my neigh ticks most of the boxes for the latter) make-up is often that they are cowards when they know they've been sussed. They are usually very plausible, and present themselves as 'good ol' folk' who are wrong-done by. Once they've done enough to allow this phony veneer to crack, they are not sure how to handle it, as I found recently with my neigh when I delivered my 3-pager; he and his wife, who I heard out on their drive as I approached, ran behind their motorhome and I had to entice them out; "Come out! Come Out! We need to talk about your behaviour!".

He was happy to do sneaky things below the radar, until I'd accumulated enough evidence to act.

Twenty minutes later, I had a lovely recording of this guy's deviousness, was able to tell him he was a 'liar, cheat, and a criminal - all of which I can evidence', also captured his clumsy attempts at him trying to accuse me of harassment*, whilst inadvertently saying things that made it clear that is what he was doing, and even a ridiculous 'racist' remark (my unreasonable behaviour is because I'm not English...), and even trying to mock my lifestyle. They finally retreated to the back of their drive, where they sat there cussing.

I didn't know that the OP's issues have been going on for that long, tho'.

*From an earlier attempt to approach to him when he was reversing out his drive. When he saw me, he drove off, leaving his wife and daughter (in her own car) behind. I told his wife (who is actually 'normal') how disappointed I was that he'd got her lying to the police now, and turned away. His daughter drove past and shouted out "YOU GOT WHAT YOU DESERVED!", which was a stupid admission of what her dad had done. 

I almost certainly had enough to take civil action against him, but who the hell wants to do that. Not enough evidence of the latest incident for the police to act (he'd been told to C&D a decade ago), tho' "It looks suspicious", and it remains on file.

I made it clear that "It stops NOW." And I will need to act if he's daft enough to try anything else. I am very confident that I have more than enough, including all these recordings.

But you gave advice in June 2021.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6274892/fence-issues#latest

Jeepers_Creeperssaid:

 

An approach is obviously the first thing to do, in a calm and measured way. You explain the reasons why you'd like/need it to stop. 

If they are bolshie and/or belligerent, then you turn it to asking them "Why do you think..." "So can I put my washing on your..."

At all times you don't show any annoyance, regardless of how annoying they are; that would only bring you down to their level and give them more 'justification' in their minds. 

Hopefully that would have been enough*. 

If it's unsuccessful - they are off-t'scale loons - then you have the two options open to you - LegProt or paint. For the latter you MUST protect yourself 100% so that she can't allege you did it without warning.

* Best possible situation during the approach is to have a witness - and if there's someone on their side too, that's doubly-good. It's not even to act as a witness - a secondary source of recall - but just to make them behave reasonably at the time. 'Inside', these folk know what they are saying and doing - it's all very carefully measured in order to feed this wee nasty thing inside of their heads - and part of that will tell them to not expose their unreasonableness to others other than the target; they won't 'expose' themselves (unless they are simply insane).

Oh, and record any conversation' - have your phone ready. Surreptitiously is fine.

Bendy_House

I'm quite flattered you've been following me with such interest.

I hadn't realised that was the same person - yes, I recall that thread now.

And I think I'll shut up...

DanDare999

GDB2222 said:

Bendy_House said:

GDB2222 said:

I’m curious about why it matters so much that scary lady walks across worried's garden? Postie does it, and that’s fine with worried. Scary lady does it because it’s a shortcut. It’s a bit rude, I agree. Well, very rude, but it’s liveable with rudeness. 

Have you read the whole thread, GDB?

Based on what the OP has described, this isn't just a case of a lady walking across someone else's garden. It's a culmination of issues which should constitute nuisance if not actual harassment.

The OP has been a bit coy on detail, tho', such as what she's done about it so far. 

I understand that there's a previous history of bad behaviour here. But, this particular bit of bad behaviour is not too serious. It may be the straw that breaks the camel's back, so to speak, but on the whole it sounds like something that could be ignored. 

This particular bit of bad behaviour has been described by the OP as harassment, but it doesn't really seem like that. It's just somebody using a shortcut that they are not entitled to use. There's no deliberate harm to the OP's property as far as I can tell. 

Seems to be causing the OP alarm and distress so are you saying it's accidental trespassing by the neighbour?

GDB2222

DanDare999 said:

GDB2222 said:

Bendy_House said:

GDB2222 said:

I’m curious about why it matters so much that scary lady walks across worried's garden? Postie does it, and that’s fine with worried. Scary lady does it because it’s a shortcut. It’s a bit rude, I agree. Well, very rude, but it’s liveable with rudeness. 

Have you read the whole thread, GDB?

Based on what the OP has described, this isn't just a case of a lady walking across someone else's garden. It's a culmination of issues which should constitute nuisance if not actual harassment.

The OP has been a bit coy on detail, tho', such as what she's done about it so far. 

I understand that there's a previous history of bad behaviour here. But, this particular bit of bad behaviour is not too serious. It may be the straw that breaks the camel's back, so to speak, but on the whole it sounds like something that could be ignored. 

This particular bit of bad behaviour has been described by the OP as harassment, but it doesn't really seem like that. It's just somebody using a shortcut that they are not entitled to use. There's no deliberate harm to the OP's property as far as I can tell. 

Seems to be causing the OP alarm and distress so are you saying it's accidental trespassing by the neighbour?

It does seem to be upsetting the OP, but the question is why? The postman taking exactly the same route is not upsetting the OP, so I'm trying to understand whether Scary lady is actually doing anything specifically to upset the OP? 

As an example, we are on a corner here, and loads of people take a shortcut across our front garden, rather than walking a couple of yards further round the pavement. It's a bit thoughtless and rude of them,  but there's clearly no intention to harass us.  I could make a fool of myself shouting at them, I suppose.  

 

DanDare999

GDB2222 said:

DanDare999 said:

GDB2222 said:

Bendy_House said:

GDB2222 said:

I’m curious about why it matters so much that scary lady walks across worried's garden? Postie does it, and that’s fine with worried. Scary lady does it because it’s a shortcut. It’s a bit rude, I agree. Well, very rude, but it’s liveable with rudeness. 

Have you read the whole thread, GDB?

Based on what the OP has described, this isn't just a case of a lady walking across someone else's garden. It's a culmination of issues which should constitute nuisance if not actual harassment.

The OP has been a bit coy on detail, tho', such as what she's done about it so far. 

I understand that there's a previous history of bad behaviour here. But, this particular bit of bad behaviour is not too serious. It may be the straw that breaks the camel's back, so to speak, but on the whole it sounds like something that could be ignored. 

This particular bit of bad behaviour has been described by the OP as harassment, but it doesn't really seem like that. It's just somebody using a shortcut that they are not entitled to use. There's no deliberate harm to the OP's property as far as I can tell. 

Seems to be causing the OP alarm and distress so are you saying it's accidental trespassing by the neighbour?

It does seem to be upsetting the OP, but the question is why? The postman taking exactly the same route is not upsetting the OP, so I'm trying to understand whether Scary lady is actually doing anything specifically to upset the OP? 

As an example, we are on a corner here, and loads of people take a shortcut across our front garden, rather than walking a couple of yards further round the pavement. It's a bit thoughtless and rude of them,  but there's clearly no intention to harass us.  I could make a fool of myself shouting at them, I suppose.  

 

Are the same people dumping dog muck and using your fence as a washing line? There is clearly a course of conduct here.