Boiler and water tank questions

danielle2022x

Hi everyone

I'm new to this so apologies if this has been asked before or if this seems to be a silly question. I have just moved into a new house and it's the first time I've moved in many years. There is a hot water tank and a boiler and I'm really struggling to understand everything. I didn't ask when I moved in and I realise I should have. It's a 3 bedroom detatched home built in 2009. I have got a Ultracom high efficiency condensing combination boiler in the kitchen and a Range Tribune HE water tank in a cupboard upstairs (please remember I don't know what I'm talking about sorry). I have got some questiosn

1. What is the water tank for? In my old house we only had a combi boiler so not sure what it does

2. It makes a pressususing/releasing water sound every 10 minutes or so for a few seconds, is this normal

3. The boiler has a control unit in the plug in the wall for the heating and hot water timers, do I need to set the hot water to be on before a bath? I thought I did as initially the water was cold but now I haven't done it in many weeks, but not sure if that's due to the hot weather? (I never used to have to think about this in advance of using hot water)

4. Can I use a google nest thermostat with this kind of set up instead of the control thing that is currently there? And who would do the job of installing this?

5. Could the boiler be moved, say in the cupboard upstairs with the tank, so that I can free up a cupboard space in the kitchen?

6. Could the tank be oved, into the attic, so I have got some cupboard space upstairs?

I will send any more information if it is needed. thank you very much.

Dx

BUFF

are you sure that it is a combination boiler & not a regular (condensing) boiler? 

Bendy_House

danielle2022x said:

It's a 3 bedroom detatched home built in 2009. Good, so should be pretty well insulated.

I have got a Ultracom high efficiency condensing combination boiler in the kitchen and a Range Tribune HE water tank in a cupboard upstairs (please remember I don't know what I'm talking about sorry). I have got some questiosn

1. What is the water tank for? In my old house we only had a combi boiler so not sure what it does. This stores your hot water supply to your taps under mains pressure, so it gives you a great flow out of every tap and shower. It is heated mainly by the boiler (becuase gas is cheaper), and will almost certainly have an immersion heater as a back up - try not to use that as it's costly electricty.

2. It makes a pressususing/releasing water sound every 10 minutes or so for a few seconds, is this normal. Not sure. I don;t think so. It may need a service - they often have an expansion 'bubble' inside them, and this can cause noises if depleted - usually easy for a G3 to sort (that's the qualification to service).

3. The boiler has a control unit in the plug in the wall for the heating and hot water timers, do I need to set the hot water to be on before a bath? I thought I did as initially the water was cold but now I haven't done it in many weeks, but not sure if that's due to the hot weather? (I never used to have to think about this in advance of using hot water) If your hot tank is 'hot' and you are getting hot water out of it, then it's being heated by either the boiler or the immersion heaters. Even in this hot weather you won't get 'hot' water! (Unless you have a solar panel on the roof?!) So, yes, you need to time the boiler to heat the tank as and when it's needed - try and keep it to a min (see the other thread for an explanation).

4. Can I use a google nest thermostat with this kind of set up instead of the control thing that is currently there? And who would do the job of installing this? Yes. You'll need a dual channel (DHW & CH) of whatever system you go for - Nest, Hive, Danfoss, whatevs. GlowWorm (Ultracom) and Vaillant may have their own controls options for this. But, any 'Smart' 'Programmable' system with an App will give you much better control, and is worth doing. Who'll install it? A sparky. (Some Hives come with an installtion option, posisbly Nest too?)

5. Could the boiler be moved, say in the cupboard upstairs with the tank, so that I can free up a cupboard space in the kitchen? Yes, usually, but it won't be cheap, and is rarely worth it for a wee bit of extra space. When that boiler finally goes 'kaput', that's the time to consider it..

6. Could the tank be oved, into the attic, so I have got some cupboard space upstairs? Ditto - but it'll be expensive. No harm in asking G3s for quotes.

I will send any more information if it is needed. thank you very much.

Dx

Link to other thread re 'scheduling': https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6378381/immersion-hot-water-system-what-schedule-is-most-optimal#latest

Rodders53

1.   The Range Tribune HE is an unvented HW tank to store water heated by the boiler and/or an electric immersion element.
Thus it's unlikely to be a Combi version of the Glow Worm Ultracom but a regular system boiler.
Find the rating plates for exact models and user/installation manuals -- hopefully left by previous owners or download a copy of them for reference.

2.  No that sounds (very) wrong.  You may need a Gas Safe and one with unvented HW cylinder qualifications to service and check things over?

3. Timer for CH to suit your use come winter.  Timer for HW similarly (typically these unvented cylinders will reheat in 30-60 mins on a gas boiler and retain enough HW for a couple's use for over 24 hours use - but YMMV).  On once or twice a day for an hour? Cylinder will have a thermostat to shut off the boiler once HW tank is 'satisfied' = hot enough.

4. Yes. Any decent heating technician or electrician will know / work out how to install.  It's not rocket science to even DIY, either.

5. Yes move at great expense... but it's an old boiler.  Likely better to install a new boiler with warranty.  Lot's of replumbing will be required.

6. Yes at great expense also.  Loft will need suitable safe access ladder and boarding.  Tank may need a lot extra insulation to minimise heat loss from it.  Boiler could be in loft as well if you wish.

Do not lose the HW tank and go combi. A HW tank will be needed for green solutions (heat pumps / solar thermal or solar electric).  If replacing the boiler examine costs for heat pump solutions? (The costs still don't seem to stack up at present;  but always worth checking).

danielle2022x

Hi thank you all for your responses, this is really appreciated. I think maybe I have got confused between a combination boiler and condensing boiler. Thank you for your help.

Bendy_House

Yikes!

Does it give the specific model of that boiler?

Going by the presence of BOTH a 'tap' and a 'radiator' symbol, that would appear to be a Combi boiler after all. However, combis boilers do not NEED to be used as a 'combi', and doesn't have to provide instant hot water. So I suspect yours is running as a conventional 'heat-only' boiler.

We could really do with photos of your hot tank, and surrounding pipework - so we can look for valves and pumps and stuff.

BUFF

It says Ultracom 18Sxi on it which appears to be a condensing system boiler
https://library.plumbase.co.uk/flipbooks/RE/gwuc18sxi_20374_t/mobile/index.html

danielle2022x

Hi sorry here are some more pictures of the boiler and the tank.
I just want to add that I have been doing the washing up and having baths and showers without putting the hot water on or changing any of the settings and it has been absolutely fine.  

BUFF

your cylinder has an electrical immersion heater as a backup. I can't see with 100% certainty that it is switched on as I can't see all the cable run but I suspect that the switch on the wall to the left is for it & it is on. If it is, it's a more expensive way of heating your water.
I would also expect the immersion heater thermostat to be set higher than your cylinder thermostat which looks to be currently set in the low 30s so even if you were heating the cylinder from the boiler that would cut out due to the low cylinder stat setting but the immersion would still try to reach it's (likely) higher temp. setting.

btw the "control thing" on the wall reminds me of a Hive (possibly same oem - I feel that I should know that logo , possibly British Gas?). If it is there isn't a massive amount to be gained by switching to Nest, although it should be an easy swap..

danielle2022x

Thank you to everyone for helping me, I really appreciate everything. 

Bendy_House

Cool - good photos, Danielle.

Phew - that's a system boiler right enough. The 'tap'-symbol control is unlikely to be set up in your situation, so the 'CH' temp control (the one with the radiator) is probably the only one that sets the boiler temperature.

Ok, looking at this pic, the arrows are:

GREEN: your CH motorised valve. This opens whenever your controller turns your CH on. Don't worry about it.

YELLOW: your DHW motorised valve. This opens whenever your controller turns on your hot water. Don't worry about it.

BLUE: your cylinder thermostat. This controls how hot the DHW in that cylinder becomes. You'd normally set that to around 60oC, which means your DHW will be nicely hot, and you'll have little risk of Legionnaire's. This stat controls your boiler, so when your hot cylinder has reached the set temp - eg 60oC - then it'll tell the boiler to turn off, regardless of whether the timer is telling it to run. This stat is currently set far too low.

ORANGE: this is your electric immersion heater. I suspect this is what's currently heating your hot cylinder, so it'll be costing you a LOT more than it should, as electricity is FAR more expensive than gas.

BROWN: This is almost certainly your immersion heater switch. It is currently 'on'. That explains your lashings of hot water. And what will likely be a hefty electricity bill.

I don't know why the immersion is being used, as your boiler should really be heating your hot water.

Your programmer is an early 'Hive', probably badged as a British Gas jobbie. Can't remember what model - WPS or similar? Anyhoo, I think you'd be best served by updating this to a more current Hive model - even the 'Mini' - and this will give you much better control, even via an App (and voice control if that's your thing). Yes, you could also go Nest, tho' I know little of them. And there are other makes too.

What would be really useful now is a close up pic of the 'receiver', and then we can hopefully get to the bottom of how to make your boiler do the heating...

That 'Hive' controller - are you familiar with how it works? Can you set it? Change it? The later Hives are FAR easier to set up via the App - it's really very good.