Are solar panels pointless?

LancyRebello

How this compares to installing battery storage only and using cheaper Octopus night tariff to charge the battery.  This should offset current high unit charges for electric & gas.  

2nd_time_buyer

Mikeyboy01443 said:

I said it before and i say again, i dont understand the obsession with solar having to pay for itself.
Another question, how many of you PVers would still have got solar if it never paid for itself? 
I didnt look at any payback figures on any quotes i had, and i havent worked out how long it will take to pay back what i spent on it, i don't care, i like the fact i am no longer at the mercy of utility companies, i am a high electric user. 
I dont get the mindset of some of the bean counter types on here but I'm sure likewise there would be others who dont agree with my point of view.
To those who think it's a waste of time and money, lets talk in 2023 after winter bills and energy blackouts 🙂

To some extent environmental benefit now goes hand-in-hand with cost. Take for example, an installation on a south facing roof, this would cost the same as the same installation on a North facing roof. However, the generation (and environmental impact) will be significantly lower.   

The same argument could be made for higher "quality" panels, inverters, and fitting optimisers, except that it might take longer to realise the cost/environmental benefit e.g. in terms of increased reliability and lifespan.

So I would argue that if you are mainly interested from an environmental standpoint, maximising the benefit/maximising is a convenient measure of the positive environmental impact.  

I am not quite sure I follow your logic that solar should not need to pay for itself. Your later paragraphs imply that the cost savings are important to you, and therefore presumably are part of the reason you installed solar but that you have not done the sums (which is fair enough).  

Mikeyboy01443

2nd_time_buyer said:

Mikeyboy01443 said:

I said it before and i say again, i dont understand the obsession with solar having to pay for itself.
Another question, how many of you PVers would still have got solar if it never paid for itself? 
I didnt look at any payback figures on any quotes i had, and i havent worked out how long it will take to pay back what i spent on it, i don't care, i like the fact i am no longer at the mercy of utility companies, i am a high electric user. 
I dont get the mindset of some of the bean counter types on here but I'm sure likewise there would be others who dont agree with my point of view.
To those who think it's a waste of time and money, lets talk in 2023 after winter bills and energy blackouts 🙂

To some extent environmental benefit now goes hand-in-hand with cost. Take for example, an installation on a south facing roof, this would cost the same as the same installation on a North facing roof. However, the generation (and environmental impact) will be significantly lower.   

The same argument could be made for higher "quality" panels, inverters, and optimises, except that it might take longer to realise the cost/environmental benefit. In terms of increased reliability and lifespan.

So I would argue that if you are mainly interested from an environmental minimising the cost/benefit is a convenient measure of the positive environmental impact.  

I am not quite sure I follow your logic that solar should not need to pay for itself. Your later paragraphs imply that the cost savings are important to you, and therefore presumably are part of the reason you installed solar but that you have not just done the sums (which is fair enough).  

on a month by month basis yes - i like to keep monthly costs low, so having no (or very low) utility bills is what i wanted, plus the benefits that come with it.

i'm far from an eco warrior yet seem to have ended up ticking a lot of those boxes, i have never made any changes with a view to helping the envrionment, merely my wallet

my logic of solar not needing to pay for itself is that, no other home improvement is viewed in the same way that unless it pays for itself in X number of years then its pointless?

so for me yes it will inevitably pay for itself, but that isnt why i got it. i got it to remove my monthly utility bills (which by now would be £250-£300, in winter probably £500 or more) and to cushion myself from future price rices

2nd_time_buyer

Mikeyboy01443 said:

2nd_time_buyer said:

Mikeyboy01443 said:

I said it before and i say again, i dont understand the obsession with solar having to pay for itself.
Another question, how many of you PVers would still have got solar if it never paid for itself? 
I didnt look at any payback figures on any quotes i had, and i havent worked out how long it will take to pay back what i spent on it, i don't care, i like the fact i am no longer at the mercy of utility companies, i am a high electric user. 
I dont get the mindset of some of the bean counter types on here but I'm sure likewise there would be others who dont agree with my point of view.
To those who think it's a waste of time and money, lets talk in 2023 after winter bills and energy blackouts 🙂

To some extent environmental benefit now goes hand-in-hand with cost. Take for example, an installation on a south facing roof, this would cost the same as the same installation on a North facing roof. However, the generation (and environmental impact) will be significantly lower.   

The same argument could be made for higher "quality" panels, inverters, and optimises, except that it might take longer to realise the cost/environmental benefit. In terms of increased reliability and lifespan.

So I would argue that if you are mainly interested from an environmental minimising the cost/benefit is a convenient measure of the positive environmental impact.  

I am not quite sure I follow your logic that solar should not need to pay for itself. Your later paragraphs imply that the cost savings are important to you, and therefore presumably are part of the reason you installed solar but that you have not just done the sums (which is fair enough).  

on a month by month basis yes - i like to keep monthly costs low, so having no (or very low) utility bills is what i wanted, plus the benefits that come with it.

i'm far from an eco warrior yet seem to have ended up ticking a lot of those boxes, i have never made any changes with a view to helping the envrionment, merely my wallet

my logic of solar not needing to pay for itself is that, no other home improvement is viewed in the same way that unless it pays for itself in X number of years then its pointless?

so for me yes it will inevitably pay for itself, but that isnt why i got it. i got it to remove my monthly utility bills (which by now would be £250-£300, in winter probably £500 or more) and to cushion myself from future price rices

I am also an accidental eco warrior so can definitely relate to the above.

...but if your energy bills were only £25 or £30 per month and were guaranteed to stay that way would you have still have had the panels fitted?  I would argue that maybe you have just applied a greater factor on the benefit of hedging against energy price raises than some people might. This could be analogous to taking out a fully index linked annuity rather than fixed or capped income annuity.

ABrass

Mikeyboy01443 said:

2nd_time_buyer said:

Mikeyboy01443 said:

I said it before and i say again, i dont understand the obsession with solar having to pay for itself.
Another question, how many of you PVers would still have got solar if it never paid for itself? 
I didnt look at any payback figures on any quotes i had, and i havent worked out how long it will take to pay back what i spent on it, i don't care, i like the fact i am no longer at the mercy of utility companies, i am a high electric user. 
I dont get the mindset of some of the bean counter types on here but I'm sure likewise there would be others who dont agree with my point of view.
To those who think it's a waste of time and money, lets talk in 2023 after winter bills and energy blackouts 🙂

To some extent environmental benefit now goes hand-in-hand with cost. Take for example, an installation on a south facing roof, this would cost the same as the same installation on a North facing roof. However, the generation (and environmental impact) will be significantly lower.   

The same argument could be made for higher "quality" panels, inverters, and optimises, except that it might take longer to realise the cost/environmental benefit. In terms of increased reliability and lifespan.

So I would argue that if you are mainly interested from an environmental minimising the cost/benefit is a convenient measure of the positive environmental impact.  

I am not quite sure I follow your logic that solar should not need to pay for itself. Your later paragraphs imply that the cost savings are important to you, and therefore presumably are part of the reason you installed solar but that you have not just done the sums (which is fair enough).  

on a month by month basis yes - i like to keep monthly costs low, so having no (or very low) utility bills is what i wanted, plus the benefits that come with it.

i'm far from an eco warrior yet seem to have ended up ticking a lot of those boxes, i have never made any changes with a view to helping the envrionment, merely my wallet

my logic of solar not needing to pay for itself is that, no other home improvement is viewed in the same way that unless it pays for itself in X number of years then its pointless?

so for me yes it will inevitably pay for itself, but that isnt why i got it. i got it to remove my monthly utility bills (which by now would be £250-£300, in winter probably £500 or more) and to cushion myself from future price rices

Mine do.

I've been thinking about adding even more insulation to the house, but it'll cost a lot and won't make enough difference to be worth it.

And plenty of people do look at extensions and ask if they'll add the amount they're spending to the house price or not.

QrizB

LancyRebello said:

How this compares to installing battery storage only and using cheaper Octopus night tariff to charge the battery.  This should offset current high unit charges for electric & gas.  

OK, let's assume you already own a suitable EV.

Then you need to buiy a home storage battery. Let's say you buy an 8kWh battery for £4k installed.

Let's also say that you use all 8kWh every day, buying at 7.5p rather than 40p. Let's also ignore efficiency and assume 100% of the electricity you but is available to use later.

Your savings are £949 a year, payback is a little over 4 years.

But inverters and batteries aren't 100% efficient. Let's say you only get 7kWh out of your battery. Your savings fall to £803 a year, payback is five years.

Bue electricity probably won't be 40p/kWh forever; in a couple of years it might be back to 20p/kWh. Even if Go falls to 5p/kWh again, your savings will drop to £365 a year and payback becomes almost nine years (2 x £803 + 7 x £365).

If you don't own an EV, of course, you're looking at an extra captial expenditure upfront. This could save you more money if you're currently running an ICE but that's a separate set of calculations.

70sbudgie

Mikeyboy01443 said:

I said it before and i say again, i dont understand the obsession with solar having to pay for itself.
Another question, how many of you PVers would still have got solar if it never paid for itself? 
I didnt look at any payback figures on any quotes i had, and i havent worked out how long it will take to pay back what i spent on it, i don't care, i like the fact i am no longer at the mercy of utility companies, i am a high electric user. 
I dont get the mindset of some of the bean counter types on here but I'm sure likewise there would be others who dont agree with my point of view.
To those who think it's a waste of time and money, lets talk in 2023 after winter bills and energy blackouts 🙂

I have come to realise that I am an eco warrior (or tree hugger as a very ex boyfriend once called me as an insult!). So when I make decisions I place a heavy weighting on ethical and environmental considerations. But I don't have endless pots of money, so I do also have to mindful of the financial implications. I did this when building an extension on our house, when I bought my EV, when I installed PV and when I invested in Ripple. When building the extension, we decided that we'd never recoup the cost, but it was cheaper than moving and we would have more control over "specification". EV seemed so much of a no brainer that I was suspicious and so I decided to take out the financial element (It became my birthday present to myself). The PV didn't have a great payback when it was quoted, but at 6% the return on investment was much better than the practical alternatives (I'm not really into the effort of share dealing). For Ripple, the main motivation was the environmental aspect so I didn't invest more than I could afford to lose. 

I would suggest that in the current times, if you have the money, making decisions based only on the financials is a bit short sighted (the record profits by ff companies don't seem to be out of thr news recently).

But I would also add that for PV, you need to do your own ROI calculations based on your personal circumstances. The sellors have a fixed formula that they use and as we know "one size never fits all".

jimjames

Mikeyboy01443 said:

To those who think it's a waste of time and money, lets talk in 2023 after winter bills and energy blackouts 🙂

Not sure if you've misunderstood or got a standalone system but most of us with PV will be in exactly the same position as everyone else with blackouts, we can't use the electricity from panels if the grid is down so it's not really going to be a time to be smug.

Mikeyboy01443

jimjames said:

Mikeyboy01443 said:

To those who think it's a waste of time and money, lets talk in 2023 after winter bills and energy blackouts 🙂

Not sure if you've misunderstood or got a standalone system but most of us with PV will be in exactly the same position as everyone else with blackouts, we can't use the electricity from panels if the grid is down so it's not really going to be a time to be smug.

as with many systems installed now i have EPS so yes i can run without grid...

70sbudgie

There are some battery systems (Tesla, I believe) that can operate in island mode, but as it can be a safety issue for DNOs, I understand thay you have to get permission first.