Neighbour using alley but has no right of access - wants to buy access

Bendy_House

LilMissSunshine said:

I was clear communicating to the neighbour he does not own the alley way and has zero access rights.

He wanted to fix my other neighbour (who i have to give access to) broken gate to make it look nice. Even though its none of his business and wasn't even going to get permission to do that. Instead he attached a fence panel feom his house to my fence half way down the alley, basically redrawing my boundary of what I own and blocking me from accessing half my fence for maintenance. In 10yrs my other neighbour could claim prescriptive easement and id have a while issue having to get permission to maintain my own fence from the alley. I to him that he had to remove it, he then did and attached it further down the alley which doesn't solve the problem.

So in the end I told him again take it down and he has no access rights. 

Clearly this is a guy who refuses to listen. Perhaps sticking a diagram up here would of helped. Anyway he is Ben told clearly he has no access rights and it doesn't matter if he wants to make something look nice he has no right.

A diagram always helps, but I think we have the gist.

Ok, facts... This chancer presumed access to this alleyway. Ok, this might have just been ignorance, but it's still presumptuous, and that's never a good thing.

He used his presumption to dump rubbish in that alleyway. Not a good thing.

Once his error was pointed out, his manner was not exactly one of contrition. Def not a good thing.

He wants to interfere with your neighbour's gate - even tho' it's none of his business. Ditto.

He put up a fence panel on land that wasn't his. Ok, we are now going well beyond it not being a good thing, and into the realms of a deluded and entitled 'ole.

When told to remove it, he moved it - a few yards. Still trespassing.

This guy needs a line in the sand, and to understand something will happens if he crosses it.

I would now do as NC says and screw a post across that gate. This post will be screwed to your side of the gate posts, so on your border line. I wouldn't screw the actual gate shut, unless you are very clear it, too, is on your, or your rightful neighbour's side of the boundary, and you ask your RN first. So, a post across is prob best. Explain to your 'rightful' neighbour what you are doing, and why.

Add anything else to that list above, LMS, and print it off. The next time you need to tell him something and he complains, moans, or argues - eg about the post you put up - just read that list out, nice and loud and clear. If he moans, stop, wait, and start again from the beginning. And then tell him he has ZERO access to that alleyway. No entitlement to access except possibly on very rare occasions for access for maintenance to his property - and for that he must seek permission. If he removes or damages that post, that'll be 'criminal property damage', and you will be forced to act.

Did you tell us if you have LP on your insurance? If 'no', then add it - but don't mention anything about this. If 'yes', then call them up, explain what's going on, tell them what you are doing about it, and ask 'what if the guy takes down this barrier?' I'd hope the answer would be that they'd send out a 'cease and desist' or 'letter before action'. 

When you have a moment, write a chronological account of everything that's happened, every exchange, every action. Just the concise details.

LilMissSunshine

@Bendy_House Thanks, yes he has a bee in his bonnet about wanting it to look nice even though its not his alleyway and can't understand why I don't want it to look nice. He managed to speak to my neighbour who has agreed he can go into his garden pull up his gate posts and attach the panel to the gate posts. (What I said he should do in the first place) This I am okay with because it doesn't change any boundaries.

He then was asking me if he could put slate chippings down over the existing pebbles, I jsut said no,  honestly its so weird why is he is a few weeks of moving in so obsessed with making this alley look nice. Unless you purposely go into it its not something you see.

I will do what NC says, I am going to within the boundary of the alleyway put something simple up to make it clear there is no access, making sure any posts/ poles I insert are just within the boundary. ll also make it clear for future owners down the line. A cheaper solution than putting an alley gate in. 

I need to check on LP on my insurance, had a friend staying over so hadn't had a chance yet - its also coming up for renewal in 3 months time if I haven't already got it. here is a diagram. Red line are whats on my titel plan as to what I own with a covenant specifically stating access rights to house next door only.

RAS

He sounds like a very "neat" obsessive person? You do need to stop him, as he seems oblivious to how poor his behaviour is. I'm not sure letting him put the panel on the gate posts is a good idea as he now owns part of the boundary. 

Mean-time I think LP would be useful and if you have it, ask them to send a letter now pointing out that any further "suggestions" will be rejected and that he is never to enter the alleyway again. If he starts on about the panel he installed, remove it, put it in his garden and discuss the situation with your neighbour. 

I'd agree that putting a gate across the side street end would be a good idea. Do you have any spare children you can borrow and let lose playing on trikes etc? Not obviously with balls.

Section62

Are you absolutely sure you own the part of the alley I've shaded in orange?

The typical ownership arrangements in this kind of situation is each property owns the section behind their property, i.e. that the orange part would belong to neighbour 2.  There's no hard and fast rule that must be the case, but it is the common way.

How have you confirmed your ownership?  Have you also checked Neighbour 2's deeds?

If you start making changes to the alley, such as putting a gate at the street end, you need to be absolutely sure you have the right to do so.

Bendy_House

LilMissSunshine said:

@Bendy_House Thanks, yes he has a bee in his bonnet about wanting it to look nice even though its not his alleyway and can't understand why I don't want it to look nice. He managed to speak to my neighbour who has agreed he can go into his garden pull up his gate posts and attach the panel to the gate posts. (What I said he should do in the first place) This I am okay with because it doesn't change any boundaries.

He then was asking me if he could put slate chippings down over the existing pebbles, I jsut said no,  honestly its so weird why is he is a few weeks of moving in so obsessed with making this alley look nice. Unless you purposely go into it its not something you see.

I will do what NC says, I am going to within the boundary of the alleyway put something simple up to make it clear there is no access, making sure any posts/ poles I insert are just within the boundary. ll also make it clear for future owners down the line. A cheaper solution than putting an alley gate in. 

I need to check on LP on my insurance, had a friend staying over so hadn't had a chance yet - its also coming up for renewal in 3 months time if I haven't already got it. here is a diagram. Red line are whats on my titel plan as to what I own with a covenant specifically stating access rights to house next door only.

His house runs tightly alongside much of the alleyway? And his garden runs alongside the lower part of it? Does his garden have any other way of being accessed except through his house? And how come his house looks so big?! Has it been extended sideways?

Anyhoo, assuming your ownership is as you say - that red line - and the only neighbour who has a RoW is No 1, then - given the new guy's manner and seemingly continued obsession with this alleyway - I would be inclined to absolutely nail down firmly the fact he has no entitlement whatsoever. That means he has no greater right to access that alleyway than does Zingo, who currently lives on planet Zorg.

Except should he genuinely require access to that 'south' (in the pic) side of his house for maintenance, whereupon he asks you for permission.

He sounds as tho' he may not be fully rational. If you allow him to do anything to that alleyway, there is a very good chance he'll perceive it as 'entitlement'. And, when an irrational person gets a bee in their legal bonnet, you can expect lots of "But you allowed me to/asked me to/said I could have access if I did put down chippings on it!" Ie, it becomes a grey area that the deranged can, and will, distort and exploit. And unless you can prove you said no such thing, then it'll be a horrible 'their word against yours'.

You have asked him to - and he has now - removed BOTH of these panels from the alleyway? Cool. Lawdie! What did Neighb 1 have to say about their exit being blocked?!

You took photos of these panels in situ? Yes? Good. No? Good grief - you NEED TO BUILD UP EVIDENCE, just in case this thing escalates. Did I mention, this person is irrational? Or else very cunning and devious - which is worse; ie they know exactly what they are doing, and it's all leading to something. Either can be hell. You need to NAIL this. With evidence.

And draw that line.

eddddy

RAS said:

Mean-time I think LP would be useful and if you have it, ask them to send a letter now pointing out that any further "suggestions" will be rejected and that he is never to enter the alleyway again. 

Personally, I would only do that as a very last resort.

Once you start sending letters - especially lawyers letters - it's really something you'd have to declare when you eventually decide to sell.

A lot of buyers will run away really quickly, if they think one of the neighbours is so difficult that you had to get lawyers involved.


For this reason, and other reasons as well, I would always try to sort out a misunderstanding like this with friendly discussions.

Bendy_House

Absolutely, Eddddy.

LP would not just 'act' like that in any case, but would expect YOU to undertake some of the required steps first. They should guide you with this, tho', and then - if the miscreant is daft enough to not respond correctly - they can start any civil process that may be required.

With LP, the first step is always to call them up for 'advice' and guidance.

LilMissSunshine

Section62 said:

Are you absolutely sure you own the part of the alley I've shaded in orange?

The typical ownership arrangements in this kind of situation is each property owns the section behind their property, i.e. that the orange part would belong to neighbour 2.  There's no hard and fast rule that must be the case, but it is the common way.

How have you confirmed your ownership?  Have you also checked Neighbour 2's deeds?

If you start making changes to the alley, such as putting a gate at the street end, you need to be absolutely sure you have the right to do so.

100%  my title plan is a super clear its marked exactly that way so I own all of it with a covenant for next door to have access

LilMissSunshine

Bendy_House said:

LilMissSunshine said:

@Bendy_House Thanks, yes he has a bee in his bonnet about wanting it to look nice even though its not his alleyway and can't understand why I don't want it to look nice. He managed to speak to my neighbour who has agreed he can go into his garden pull up his gate posts and attach the panel to the gate posts. (What I said he should do in the first place) This I am okay with because it doesn't change any boundaries.

He then was asking me if he could put slate chippings down over the existing pebbles, I jsut said no,  honestly its so weird why is he is a few weeks of moving in so obsessed with making this alley look nice. Unless you purposely go into it its not something you see.

I will do what NC says, I am going to within the boundary of the alleyway put something simple up to make it clear there is no access, making sure any posts/ poles I insert are just within the boundary. ll also make it clear for future owners down the line. A cheaper solution than putting an alley gate in. 

I need to check on LP on my insurance, had a friend staying over so hadn't had a chance yet - its also coming up for renewal in 3 months time if I haven't already got it. here is a diagram. Red line are whats on my titel plan as to what I own with a covenant specifically stating access rights to house next door only.

His house runs tightly alongside much of the alleyway? And his garden runs alongside the lower part of it? Does his garden have any other way of being accessed except through his house? And how come his house looks so big?! Has it been extended sideways?

Anyhoo, assuming your ownership is as you say - that red line - and the only neighbour who has a RoW is No 1, then - given the new guy's manner and seemingly continued obsession with this alleyway - I would be inclined to absolutely nail down firmly the fact he has no entitlement whatsoever. That means he has no greater right to access that alleyway than does Zingo, who currently lives on planet Zorg.

Except should he genuinely require access to that 'south' (in the pic) side of his house for maintenance, whereupon he asks you for permission.

He sounds as tho' he may not be fully rational. If you allow him to do anything to that alleyway, there is a very good chance he'll perceive it as 'entitlement'. And, when an irrational person gets a bee in their legal bonnet, you can expect lots of "But you allowed me to/asked me to/said I could have access if I did put down chippings on it!" Ie, it becomes a grey area that the deranged can, and will, distort and exploit. And unless you can prove you said no such thing, then it'll be a horrible 'their word against yours'.

You have asked him to - and he has now - removed BOTH of these panels from the alleyway? Cool. Lawdie! What did Neighb 1 have to say about their exit being blocked?!

You took photos of these panels in situ? Yes? Good. No? Good grief - you NEED TO BUILD UP EVIDENCE, just in case this thing escalates. Did I mention, this person is irrational? Or else very cunning and devious - which is worse; ie they know exactly what they are doing, and it's all leading to something. Either can be hell. You need to NAIL this. With evidence.

And draw that line.

Yeh that bit is the kitchen and bathroom, all the house are like that on that side, none of those houses have any access to their garden other than through their house. 

He spoke to neighbour 1 and got permission to enter the garden pull the gate posts thsg have fallen down and attach the panel to the posts. I csnt stop neighbour 1 giving that permission. So long as what is done doesn't change my boundary like he had before. 

I've made it absolutely clear all he can do is access it for maintaining the side of his house and thats it. If he does more works like throwing slate chippings down that's on him. Ill leave it for now if he continues to do stuff ill consider getting a letter sent to ensure he knows.

Section62

LilMissSunshine said:

Section62 said:

Are you absolutely sure you own the part of the alley I've shaded in orange?

The typical ownership arrangements in this kind of situation is each property owns the section behind their property, i.e. that the orange part would belong to neighbour 2.  There's no hard and fast rule that must be the case, but it is the common way.

How have you confirmed your ownership?  Have you also checked Neighbour 2's deeds?

If you start making changes to the alley, such as putting a gate at the street end, you need to be absolutely sure you have the right to do so.

100%  my title plan is a super clear its marked exactly that way so I own all of it with a covenant for next door to have access

Have you checked neighbour 2's as well though... just in case their title plan shows they own it too?