Neighbour using alley but has no right of access - wants to buy access

Bendy_House

LilMissSunshine said:

They are looking for access because its good for them - otherwise they would have to take everything through their house to put it in their garden. Naturally of course I would give them persmission to access the alleyway to make repairs to the side of their house.

I have given them a timeframe to remove the rubbish by.

I guess I am being a bit selfish and looking after my own interests. I wouldn't mind if they had rights to access it as my neighbour does but its clear that its kept free but I don't see why I should give that for free.

So I was just curious if anyone knew how someone determines what an appropriate amount is to pay for access rights. For now they are clear on they can't access it and need to remove their rubbish. I can see why they want it formally done that they have rights to access as it means it cannot be withdrawn at any point and thats fair reason.

No, you are not being selfish. Not in the least.

Can I suggest you 100% CONFIRM that they do NOT have a RoW through this alleyway, unlike your other neighbour?

As others have said, if this is the only way they can access their garden other than directly through their house, then it seems strange they do not have a RoW written in their (and your) deeds for this, like your other neighb does. Or was their house built after yours? Or was another exit point blocked by, say, their garage?

Ok, assuming that you can confirm this - they absolutely do NOT have a RoW - then I strongly suggest you 'retune' your brain to consider this alleyway as, say, your private garden, or your private driveway, or, your sitting room! Ie, these folk - like virtually every other of the ~8 billion folk on this planet - have absolutely NO right to go on YOUR land without your PERMISSION, and should have NO expectation of doing so.

reeeee-toooooon

Now keep that in mind when you talk to them about this. You can judge what sort of folk they are by their response. Anything other than "Of course! We understand!" should be treated with extreme caution. Any HINT of "But how are we supposed to...", or "But your other neighbour...", and you know you are not dealing with a reasonable person. These are warning bells.

Be ready to calmly and pleasantly repeat some simple mantras, and not be led aside by anything they say; "My, and your, deeds make it clear that you have no RoW along the alleyway. If you need access on occasion for something you'd find hard to do any other way, then by all means ask, and I'll see what I can do." And the other mantra is, "I have been informed that I need to be careful about how I grant access to my alleyway, as this could lead to future issues that can be difficult to resolve." These are simple facts, and unemotive. As long as you are happy with them, stick to them!

Have it absolutely clear in your head beforehand what sort of things you might be 'happy' to accept, if anything - whether it's nothing, or whether it's just very occasional access to carry out maintenance or groundworks in their garden that they reasonably couldn't do any other way, or even to allow them to wheel out their bins on a weekly basis (this generous concession should, imo, ONLY be granted if these folk are super-pleasant and contrite - watch for warning sings if they ain't) - and then anything more than permitted weekly bins (if you allow this) should be on a "Please ask" basis.

That seem churlish to you? Tsk tsk - you've already forgotten that this is YOUR land and they have NO right to access it.

They need to carry their grass cuttings through their house? So what. That is the house and garden and rights they have bought. They were told by the vendor they had access down this alleyway? They've been misinformed, and should have carried out due diligence.

They have already started off on the wrong foot - they have presumed a right, and then placed rubbish there (good lawd - would YOU have done that in someone else's alleyway?!) - AND, they are already asking 'how they can get access?'. 

Their gate shouldn't be there. If they mention it, make it clear (again pleasantly, but matter-of-factly) that (a) the presence of a gate there is irrelevant - there is no RoW, (b) you have reminded previous occupants of their house not to access your alleyway as they dumped rubbish there - and they responded correctly to this, and (c) you can prove the point by you putting your own, locked, gate in front of theirs, on your land, at any time. 'But - chuckle - I wouldn't want to do that!'

Another thing - do you have Leg Prot on your house insurance? Yes? Cool. No? Add it RIGHT AWAY, but do NOT mention any 'cause', and def not this issue - if you want, you can casually say it's been 'recommended' by folk.

That is my advice. Your call :-)

(Is there any other way they can access their garden, say by putting a doorway through their garage, or anywhere else? And, did this garage block a previous access way? It seems strange that their garden has no access except through their house, tho' that is the case for many.)

Ms_Chocaholic

I wouldn't agree to occasional access for their lawnmower etc, how will you police this and this will create problems in the future. If you find them using the alley for something else that you have not agreed then it could cause bad neighbourly relations in future.

Has their rubbish been removed yet?

theoretica

Ms_Chocaholic said:

I wouldn't agree to occasional access for their lawnmower etc, how will you police this and this will create problems in the future. If you find them using the alley for something else that you have not agreed then it could cause bad neighbourly relations in future.

While if you refuse all access now it could cause bad neighbourly relations from the start...  I would have no problems with two neighbours rather than one using an alleyway when needed, though maybe not as their usual entrance with bikes or something if it was also landscaped as part of my garden - but I would expect it to result in neighbours who expressed gratitude and felt they owed me a favour.  My neighbours have a key to my garden gate for when it is needed to let workmen in.

But I think I would have expected them to immediately suggest taking the rubbish back into their garden if they could please carry it out that route when the time comes to dispose of it, and not have left it on someone else's land.

supergran40

This is ridiculous. You own your house, with access to an alleyway. 

Somebody moves in next door and dumps a load of rubbish in your alley, to which they have no official access, blocking your access in the process. 

When you speak nicely to explain to them, please you have no access, please remove your rubbish, they ask you to tell them how they can get access (and dump more rubbish??) to your alley. 

You are seriously thinking to find out for them? – spend your time finding how to devalue your property and increase the value of theirs? 

AND lay yourself open to constant abuse of your alley?

NO, NO, and again NO. AND PADLOCK the gate.

Sit back and let them do their own research.

LilMissSunshine

So update, he had cleared the rubbish, I thought id what some had suggested and give him access but on annual basis but the then decided to want to board up the broken gate of my neighbour to make it look nice. I was explicitly cleat it that he needed neighbours permission and the pale he was putting up to be where the broken gate was. He then fixes it further down cutting up a section of the alley way that I couldn't get to. 

I went back and told him to take it down its not what was agreed, cant just change what I own. And he has no access to the ally anymore and if he needs to for maintenance to th side of his house he needs to notify both me and my neighbour prior to any works that might restrict our access.

The sheer entitlement unbelieveable. 
I'll be looking into putting up a garden panel on my alleyway boundary to block off his access via the gate so that in the future for any other owners its clear they don't have access

pinkshoes

Thanks for the update. Sounds like the person who bought the house has probably been told that the previous owner used to use it, so they think they can also do the same.

I would absolutely stand firm on this one! No access other than in emergencies, or written permission sought for a specific reason.

Bendy_House

LilMissSunshine said:

So update, he had cleared the rubbish, I thought id what some had suggested and give him access but on annual basis but the then decided to want to board up the broken gate of my neighbour to make it look nice. I was explicitly cleat it that he needed neighbours permission and the pale he was putting up to be where the broken gate was. He then fixes it further down cutting up a section of the alley way that I couldn't get to. 

I went back and told him to take it down its not what was agreed, cant just change what I own. And he has no access to the ally anymore and if he needs to for maintenance to th side of his house he needs to notify both me and my neighbour prior to any works that might restrict our access.

The sheer entitlement unbelieveable. 
I'll be looking into putting up a garden panel on my alleyway boundary to block off his access via the gate so that in the future for any other owners its clear they don't have access

Ok, I could only decipher half of that, but it sounds as tho' your neighb is a bit of an 'ole :-)

I would consider backing up what you've said verbally - and in a therefore unsubstantiated - way, with a written declaration. State simply, clearly, but non-aggressively what it is they are NOT allowed to do. Then this is either sent by recorded del, or else handed over in a witnessed manner.

State very clearly the exact point where they are not allowed access, and why (ie, they have no entitlement in their deeds).

Should they subsequently try and take the piddle, this will make matters far more easy to sort - they cannot claim "But I thought..."

Ath_Wat

Bendy_House said:

LilMissSunshine said:

So update, he had cleared the rubbish, I thought id what some had suggested and give him access but on annual basis but the then decided to want to board up the broken gate of my neighbour to make it look nice. I was explicitly cleat it that he needed neighbours permission and the pale he was putting up to be where the broken gate was. He then fixes it further down cutting up a section of the alley way that I couldn't get to. 

I went back and told him to take it down its not what was agreed, cant just change what I own. And he has no access to the ally anymore and if he needs to for maintenance to th side of his house he needs to notify both me and my neighbour prior to any works that might restrict our access.

The sheer entitlement unbelieveable. 
I'll be looking into putting up a garden panel on my alleyway boundary to block off his access via the gate so that in the future for any other owners its clear they don't have access

Ok, I could only decipher half of that, but it sounds as tho' your neighb is a bit of an 'ole :-)

If they have communicated with the neighbour in the same way as they have communicated here, is it any wonder if the neighbour is not clear on  the rules?

LilMissSunshine

Ath_Wat said:

Bendy_House said:

LilMissSunshine said:

So update, he had cleared the rubbish, I thought id what some had suggested and give him access but on annual basis but the then decided to want to board up the broken gate of my neighbour to make it look nice. I was explicitly cleat it that he needed neighbours permission and the pale he was putting up to be where the broken gate was. He then fixes it further down cutting up a section of the alley way that I couldn't get to. 

I went back and told him to take it down its not what was agreed, cant just change what I own. And he has no access to the ally anymore and if he needs to for maintenance to th side of his house he needs to notify both me and my neighbour prior to any works that might restrict our access.

The sheer entitlement unbelieveable. 
I'll be looking into putting up a garden panel on my alleyway boundary to block off his access via the gate so that in the future for any other owners its clear they don't have access

Ok, I could only decipher half of that, but it sounds as tho' your neighb is a bit of an 'ole :-)

If they have communicated with the neighbour in the same way as they have communicated here, is it any wonder if the neighbour is not clear on  the rules?

I was.typing fast and didn't proof read what I said.

I was clear communicating to the neighbour he does not own the alley way and has zero access rights.

He wanted to fix my other neighbour (who i have to give access to) broken gate to make it look nice. Even though its none of his business and wasn't even going to get permission to do that. Instead he attached a fence panel feom his house to my fence half way down the alley, basically redrawing my boundary of what I own and blocking me from accessing half my fence for maintenance. In 10yrs my other neighbour could claim prescriptive easement and id have a while issue having to get permission to maintain my own fence from the alley. I to him that he had to remove it, he then did and attached it further down the alley which doesn't solve the problem.

So in the end I told him again take it down and he has no access rights. 

Clearly this is a guy who refuses to listen. Perhaps sticking a diagram up here would of helped. Anyway he is Ben told clearly he has no access rights and it doesn't matter if he wants to make something look nice he has no right.

Norman_Castle

I would physically shut him out. Block the access from his property onto the alleyway and fit a locked gate at the other end. Take pictures of all fences and gates as they currently are and take pictures showing the exact location of all boundaries. Hopefully you won't need them but the may be invaluable if you do.

Treating the area as somewhere you own and use rather than just an access route might help deter him. Mark your territory.