Welsh Borough Council & CEL plan to use (probably) illegal ANPR: who's going to tell the DVLA?

AnotherForumite

If the PPC is the creditor in a contract (operating outside the scope of TMA) then the Local Authority is not enforcing anything.

Coupon-mad

AnotherForumite said:

If the PPC is the creditor in a contract (operating outside the scope of TMA) then the Local Authority is not enforcing anything.

But Councils cannot 'opt out' of the TMA and operate off-street car parks 'as if they were private land' - i.e. under contract law (see my link to Robert Goodwill's letter).

AFAIK the only exception is housing because the parking enforcement comes under different rules (hence how OPS still cling on to their contract with BHCC).

CEL tried the same thing at Bridgenorth only the wheels came off due to dodgy machines/unfair PCNs and the Council exercised the 'break clause' to end the contract.  That ended before anyone had reported the set up to the DVLA.

Seems to me that Councils in Wales could possibly use ANPR to issue penalty charges off street (more widely than in England).  But they cannot let a third party operate those car parks under contract law with parking charges.

@Grizebeck the complaint emails for DVLA are:

CCRT@dvla.gov.uk

KADOEservice.support@dvla.gov.uk

AnotherForumite

Coupon-mad said:

AnotherForumite said:

If the PPC is the creditor in a contract (operating outside the scope of TMA) then the Local Authority is not enforcing anything.

But Councils cannot 'opt out' of the TMA and operate off-street car parks 'as if they were private land' - i.e. under contract law (see my link to Robert Goodwill's letter).

AFAIK the only exception is housing because the parking enforcement comes under different rules (hence how OPS still cling on to their contract with BHCC).

CEL tried the same thing at Bridgenorth only the wheels came off due to dodgy machines/unfair PCNs and the Council exercised the 'break clause' to end the contract.  That ended before anyone had reported the set up to the DVLA.

Seems to me that Councils in Wales could possibly use ANPR to issue penalty charges off street (more widely than in England).  But they cannot let a third party operate those car parks under contract law with parking charges.

@Grizebeck the complaint emails for DVLA are:

CCRT@dvla.gov.uk

KADOEservice.support@dvla.gov.uk

The famous Robert Goodwill letter is one man’s interpretation, it is not law. It also relates to an attempt to deter Councils from operating under contract law; and to influence the DVLA in this respect.

I agree that’s LA’s cannot operate under contract law, but like I said, if the enforcement is being carried out by the PPC in their own name as the creditor (perhaps via a concession or contractual license); the Council has nothing to do with it and any restrictions imposed on them will not apply to the PPC.

Coupon-mad

The famous Robert Goodwill letter is one man’s interpretation, it is not law. It also relates to an attempt to deter Councils from operating under contract law; and to influence the DVLA in this respect.

And it worked.  DVLA will not issue data under this scenario (once someone tells them).

the Council has nothing to do with it.

I'm afraid it does because they are contracting out and trying to opt out of the TMA.  CEL haven't just rocked up of their own volition and set up the famous 'offer to sell you Buckingham Palace' scenario without any input by the Council.  CEL's crappy ANPR is also not an approved device, never mind the 'trying to run Council car parks under contract law' issue.

Let's see what the BPA and DVLA say, shall we?

AnotherForumite

Sadly the DVLA do give credit to this letter (as the easy option), but it wouldn’t surprise me if they were challenged at some point.  

The LAs have the option to remove their PPO, so can legitimately opt out of the TMA.

Coupon-mad

They were robustly challenged by High Wycombe, who even failed with a JR I think.

The LAs have the option to remove their PPO, so can legitimately opt out of the TMA.

You are mistaken.  That is covered in the Robert Goodwill letter. They cannot opt out of the TMA.

Nor is it 'sad' that the DVLA do what Ministers and the DFT tell them. They have to. And thank God there is higher scrutiny, because the DVLA present as almost completely in the BPA's camp and do not appear to prioritise consumers at all.

Anyway I'm now doing a BPA complaint about CEL on this and another (unconnected but very damaging) aspect of Code breach.

We'll see.  So will CEL's Wonga-guy.

AnotherForumite

Coupon-mad said:

They were robustly challenged by High Wycombe, who even failed with a JR I think.

The LAs have the option to remove their PPO, so can legitimately opt out of the TMA.

You are mistaken.  That is covered in the Robert Goodwill letter. They cannot opt out of the TMA.

Nor is it 'sad' that the DVLA do what Ministers and the DFT tell them. They have to.

High Wycombe is a completely different scenario, as the LA were attempting to operate with contract law in their own name i.e you are comparing apples with oranges.

Again, the RG letter is not law, there is nothing stopping a LA from removing their Parking Places Order.

Coupon-mad

And if they do (remove the PPO) then then there is nothing stopping the DVLA refusing to issue DVLA data to a PPC like CEL who are acting for/on behalf of a Local Authority by a back door method.

High Wycombe is a completely different scenario, as the LA were attempting to operate with contract law in their own name.

I'm well aware of that.

But letting a third party firm do it for them, using a non-approved ANPR device (banned for LA off-street car parks) and operating under contract law at arms length ain't cutting it, in my view.

We'll see.  My view will be communicated this week. And people in high places listen to me, I find.

Sadly for PPCs...

AnotherForumite

I will be very interested in hearing the outcome.

And if it goes against CEL, I will be even more interested to see if the LA and CEL have the gutts to challenge it.

Coupon-mad

The industry isn't coming out of anything smelling of roses right now, so I think be careful what you wish for.  Long term, what the PPCs do now could come back to bite you.

I think throwing around legal challenges is likely to pee off Ministers, and might make things worse for you in the long run.  Lord knows your industry is long overdue major reining in, more than is in the Code already.

The current consumer blame, then gaslighting and the 'race to court' culture by DRA and robo-claim parasites must end.