Energy company refuses to change tariff without a smart meter?

[Deleted User]

Section62 said:

Completely agree.

My complaint isn't with TOU and peak-rate charging - it is with the way the programme is being spun as saving people money and being more convenient than traditional meters.  And ignoring all the 'bad' stuff, like the inconvenience* of doing your washing at 2AM.

(*not my personal view, but what many people have told me.)

It is about the level of honesty in what the public are being told.

I was on Octopus’ Agile tariff for over 18 months. Yes, the cost of energy between 4 and 7pm was high but low price periods during the day; overnight and at weekends offset these costs. Looking back through my records, my monthly cost was averaging about 2/3rds of the standard tariff unit rate at the time. The daily standing charge was also less.

What changes did we make? More use of a slow cooker rather than the oven; delaying the start of a washing machine cycle to 6am (or 6.30am if we didn’t set the delay). HW heating overnight when energy was cheap.

Ultrasonic

Section62 said:

Ultrasonic said:

Section62 said:

If you have evidence that suppliers will be prevented from charging high-peak rates (e.g. for 7am to 9am) then that would be reassuring to many people I'm sure.

Fundamentally I don't think they should be. Using pricing to help limit peak demand may be necessary to reduce long-term reliance on fossil fuels.

Completely agree.

My complaint isn't with TOU and peak-rate charging - it is with the way the programme is being spun as saving people money and being more convenient than traditional meters.  And ignoring all the 'bad' stuff, like the inconvenience* of doing your washing at 2AM.

(*not my personal view, but what many people have told me.)

It is about the level of honesty in what the public are being told.

I actually wonder how much of a 'sales pitch' is given to smart meters now? Rather than them just being presented as what modern meters are. Which is not to say that they aren't more convenient and they do give people an easier way to keep track of their usage if they wish (which will likely appeal to more people as prices increase).

TOU tariffs are still likely to give people the option to save money though, at least in the medium term. As per Dolor's example I don't personally envisage this meaning everyone suddenly feeling obliged to take risks by doing washing in the middle of the night. 

Tiger_greeneyes

frugalmacdugal said:

Hi,

as above, are you also against a smart tv, smart phone?

Yes. Although it's hard to avoid smartphones these days. 

Tiger_greeneyes

MattMattMattUK said:

Uxb1 said:

RogerBareford said:

I just don't understand why people would care what type of meter their electricity is measured with.

Possibly because they are aware of all sorts of things and tarrifs re possible with smart meters and they have no intention of being trapped into using one with no way out.
We could have peak time of use tarrifs introduced - only possible with smart meters.
We could have what Norway is introducing which is penal rates if the consumer uses more than a certain amount of energy over some preceeding measuring period applied for the rest of the measuring period.
Some countries use a peak demand limiter such that if you go over than limit the supply cuts out  - easy to do with a smart meter.

All that will happen when we have proper ToU tariffs, is that those without smart meters will be charged the peak rate at all times, where as those with Smart Meters will only be charged peak rates at peak times, with low rates at other times. We all need to use less energy and especially at peak times, spreading the usage out more, however it seems that there are a group of anti-smart meter people who think that they should not have to do their bit, where as we will all need to to both tackle climate change and potentially keep the lights on. 

What does "doing my bit" mean? I wouldn't use less energy whether I had a smart meter or not. I use what I have to use and no more.

Tiger_greeneyes

nologo said:

Section62 said:

nologo said:

Isn't the OP already on a time of use tariff,    just saying..

And they've found a TOU tariff which is supposed to encourage off-peak usage works out more expensive than having a standard tariff.

This is one of the significant flaws in domestic energy policy... which won't be fixed by installing smart meters alone.

We need more attractive TOU tariffs to encourage people to change their behaviour, rather than so many sticks to force them to change.

I agree we need a better choice in TOU taffis but I'm not frightened by smart meters,.
Nologo

Section62 said:

nologo said:

Section62 said:

nologo said:

Isn't the OP already on a time of use tariff,    just saying..

And they've found a TOU tariff which is supposed to encourage off-peak usage works out more expensive than having a standard tariff.

This is one of the significant flaws in domestic energy policy... which won't be fixed by installing smart meters alone.

We need more attractive TOU tariffs to encourage people to change their behaviour, rather than so many sticks to force them to change.

I agree we need a better choice in TOU taffis but I'm not frightened by smart meters,.

Nobody in the thread has said they are "frightened" by smart meters.

But language like that is an example of the belittling I referred to.

Section62 said:

nologo said:

Section62 said:

nologo said:

Isn't the OP already on a time of use tariff,    just saying..

And they've found a TOU tariff which is supposed to encourage off-peak usage works out more expensive than having a standard tariff.

This is one of the significant flaws in domestic energy policy... which won't be fixed by installing smart meters alone.

We need more attractive TOU tariffs to encourage people to change their behaviour, rather than so many sticks to force them to change.

I agree we need a better choice in TOU taffis but I'm not frightened by smart meters,.

Nobody in the thread has said they are "frightened" by smart meters.

But language like that is an example of the belittling I referred to.

Section62 said:

nologo said:

Section62 said:

nologo said:

Isn't the OP already on a time of use tariff,    just saying..

And they've found a TOU tariff which is supposed to encourage off-peak usage works out more expensive than having a standard tariff.

This is one of the significant flaws in domestic energy policy... which won't be fixed by installing smart meters alone.

We need more attractive TOU tariffs to encourage people to change their behaviour, rather than so many sticks to force them to change.

I agree we need a better choice in TOU taffis but I'm not frightened by smart meters,.

Nobody in the thread has said they are "frightened" by smart meters.

But language like that is an example of the belittling I referred to.

Section62 said:

nologo said:

Section62 said:

nologo said:

Isn't the OP already on a time of use tariff,    just saying..

And they've found a TOU tariff which is supposed to encourage off-peak usage works out more expensive than having a standard tariff.

This is one of the significant flaws in domestic energy policy... which won't be fixed by installing smart meters alone.

We need more attractive TOU tariffs to encourage people to change their behaviour, rather than so many sticks to force them to change.

I agree we need a better choice in TOU taffis but I'm not frightened by smart meters,.

Nobody in the thread has said they are "frightened" by smart meters.

But language like that is an example of the belittling I referred to.

Section62 said:

nologo said:

Section62 said:

nologo said:

Isn't the OP already on a time of use tariff,    just saying..

And they've found a TOU tariff which is supposed to encourage off-peak usage works out more expensive than having a standard tariff.

This is one of the significant flaws in domestic energy policy... which won't be fixed by installing smart meters alone.

We need more attractive TOU tariffs to encourage people to change their behaviour, rather than so many sticks to force them to change.

I agree we need a better choice in TOU taffis but I'm not frightened by smart meters,.

Nobody in the thread has said they are "frightened" by smart meters.

But language like that is an example of the belittling I referred to.

You're right, it is belittling language but it's fine, I know people will judge everyone else when they're so moral themselves. It's the beauty of free speech

Tiger_greeneyes

QrizB said:

Tiger_greeneyes said:

I've been speaking with my electricity company, Outfox The Market who I've been with for a few years. I'm currently on an Economy 7 tariff but that's more expensive for me than their Standard tariff. I've asked to be changed to the Standard tariff but they won't do it unless I agree to a smart meter, which we don't want.

Getting back to basics, do you have a dual-fuel account with Outfox The Market or are you electricity-only? How much electricity do you use in a year, typically?

Outfox The Market have different SVTs for single-fuel and dual-fuel customers. The dual-fuel version is quite conventional but the single-fuel one has no standing charge. This might sound attractive but the unit rates are higher than usual and if you are an electric-only customer who uses more than the reference amount of electricity (3100kWh/yr for single-rate, 4200kWh/yr for E7) you could be better off switching supplier to eg. EDF.

Also, they're in trouble with Ofgem.

That's very interesting, thank you. I have a single fuel meter as I'm not on a gas line. I use oil heating. I've looked on comparison sites for cheaper electricity but they're all at least £100 per month dearer than OFM. I'm a very low user but my bills have tripled in the last year alone.

QrizB

Tiger_greeneyes said:

QrizB said:

Tiger_greeneyes said:

I've been speaking with my electricity company, Outfox The Market who I've been with for a few years. I'm currently on an Economy 7 tariff but that's more expensive for me than their Standard tariff. I've asked to be changed to the Standard tariff but they won't do it unless I agree to a smart meter, which we don't want.

Getting back to basics, do you have a dual-fuel account with Outfox The Market or are you electricity-only? How much electricity do you use in a year, typically?

Outfox The Market have different SVTs for single-fuel and dual-fuel customers. The dual-fuel version is quite conventional but the single-fuel one has no standing charge. This might sound attractive but the unit rates are higher than usual and if you are an electric-only customer who uses more than the reference amount of electricity (3100kWh/yr for single-rate, 4200kWh/yr for E7) you could be better off switching supplier to eg. EDF.

Also, they're in trouble with Ofgem.

That's very interesting, thank you. I have a single fuel meter as I'm not on a gas line. I use oil heating. I've looked on comparison sites for cheaper electricity but they're all at least £100 per month dearer than OFM. I'm a very low user but my bills have tripled in the last year alone.

Do check your annual consumption and tariff details.

If you are genuinely a low user of electricity - less than 3100kWh/yr - you'll probalbly be better off with Outfox, so long as they don't go bust.

You won't find all the tariffs on every comparison site, and a few of them don't seem to ever show up on those sites.

If you can post the details of your current tariff and annual consumption here, we can give you an idea of where to look (or if you're better off where you are).)

Tiger_greeneyes

QrizB said:

Tiger_greeneyes said:

QrizB said:

Tiger_greeneyes said:

I've been speaking with my electricity company, Outfox The Market who I've been with for a few years. I'm currently on an Economy 7 tariff but that's more expensive for me than their Standard tariff. I've asked to be changed to the Standard tariff but they won't do it unless I agree to a smart meter, which we don't want.

Getting back to basics, do you have a dual-fuel account with Outfox The Market or are you electricity-only? How much electricity do you use in a year, typically?

Outfox The Market have different SVTs for single-fuel and dual-fuel customers. The dual-fuel version is quite conventional but the single-fuel one has no standing charge. This might sound attractive but the unit rates are higher than usual and if you are an electric-only customer who uses more than the reference amount of electricity (3100kWh/yr for single-rate, 4200kWh/yr for E7) you could be better off switching supplier to eg. EDF.

Also, they're in trouble with Ofgem.

That's very interesting, thank you. I have a single fuel meter as I'm not on a gas line. I use oil heating. I've looked on comparison sites for cheaper electricity but they're all at least £100 per month dearer than OFM. I'm a very low user but my bills have tripled in the last year alone.

Do check your annual consumption and tariff details.

If you are genuinely a low user of electricity - less than 3100kWh/yr - you'll probalbly be better off with Outfox, so long as they don't go bust.

You won't find all the tariffs on every comparison site, and a few of them don't seem to ever show up on those sites.

If you can post the details of your current tariff and annual consumption here, we can give you an idea of where to look (or if you're better off where you are).)

QrizB said:

Tiger_greeneyes said:

QrizB said:

Tiger_greeneyes said:

I've been speaking with my electricity company, Outfox The Market who I've been with for a few years. I'm currently on an Economy 7 tariff but that's more expensive for me than their Standard tariff. I've asked to be changed to the Standard tariff but they won't do it unless I agree to a smart meter, which we don't want.

Getting back to basics, do you have a dual-fuel account with Outfox The Market or are you electricity-only? How much electricity do you use in a year, typically?

Outfox The Market have different SVTs for single-fuel and dual-fuel customers. The dual-fuel version is quite conventional but the single-fuel one has no standing charge. This might sound attractive but the unit rates are higher than usual and if you are an electric-only customer who uses more than the reference amount of electricity (3100kWh/yr for single-rate, 4200kWh/yr for E7) you could be better off switching supplier to eg. EDF.

Also, they're in trouble with Ofgem.

That's very interesting, thank you. I have a single fuel meter as I'm not on a gas line. I use oil heating. I've looked on comparison sites for cheaper electricity but they're all at least £100 per month dearer than OFM. I'm a very low user but my bills have tripled in the last year alone.

Do check your annual consumption and tariff details.

If you are genuinely a low user of electricity - less than 3100kWh/yr - you'll probalbly be better off with Outfox, so long as they don't go bust.

You won't find all the tariffs on every comparison site, and a few of them don't seem to ever show up on those sites.

If you can post the details of your current tariff and annual consumption here, we can give you an idea of where to look (or if you're better off where you are).)

Thank you - I've found this on my most recent statement, I'm hoping it's what you're wanting!

Estimated Annual Consumption - Day 3446.3 kWh
Estimated Annual Consumption - Night 397.4 kWh

214.0kWh 33.96148p
56.0kWh 22.34572p

I think I'm a low user, we don't have a tv, the computer goes on once a day to check emails and then it goes off again, we've been going to bed before it gets dark so we don't use lighting, the only things on all the time are the router as our phone runs off it and the fridge freezer. The boiler kicks in a couple of times a day briefly to heat the water and we shower instead of bath. It's hard to know where I could make a cut, to be fair. My problem is that I'm unable to work for health reasons so have to use energy during the day when I'm home, especially in the darker and colder months.

QrizB

Tiger_greeneyes said:

Thank you - I've found this on my most recent statement, I'm hoping it's what you're wanting!

Estimated Annual Consumption - Day 3446.3 kWh
Estimated Annual Consumption - Night 397.4 kWh

214.0kWh 33.96148p
56.0kWh 22.34572p

Thst's very helpful, thank you. I think you've quoted the ex-VAT unit prices - which makes them 35.65p and 23.46p and puts you on the zero-standing-charge version of the tariff in the West Midlands.

• Your estimated annual consumption works out as £1322/yr on E7.
• On the same tariff but single-rate, 3843.7kWh at 33.53p/kWh would be £1289/yr - a £33/yr saving.
• On EDF's standard single-rate tariff of 27.86p/kWh plus 48.13p/day, it would cost £1247/yr - £75/yr less than you're curently paying, and £42/yr less than the single-rate option with OTM.

So if you plan to stay on a varaible tariff, it looks to me as though you'd be best off switching away from Outfox The Market and joining EDF (or Octopus, whose SVT is pretty much identical to EDF and get fewer complaints on this forum.) In both cases you can't switch via their website so you'll have to phone them (Octopus will I think also let you switch by email).

markin

No one has to go to bed at dark, you can happily read a book with a LED bulb that only uses 1W, But a 2w to 5w bulb would be brighter, The 5w bulb is rated at 3kwh for 2,000hrs that would be 6hrs everyday for a full year.