Energy company refuses to change tariff without a smart meter?

Section62

Dolor said:

The industry has to find innovative ways of managing voltage and frequency as more intermittent renewables come online. At the moment, if your home voltage exceeds 253volts it requires the DNO to adjust your local transformer. What if this could be done dynamically by monitoring the voltage supplied to your home every 30 minutes, and then adjusting the voltage automatically at a major transformer site? It might even save you some money.

https://www.northernpowergrid.com/sites/default/files/assets/6480.pdf

From your link -

Do I need to have a smart meter to have my voltage optimised?  
No – the BEET-Box will read smart meter voltage data and feed it back to Northern Powergrid,
who can then optimise the voltage for all customers.

In other words, it only needs one or two monitoring points for "thousands of customers", not one in every household.

Ultrasonic

nologo said:.

I agree we need a better choice in TOU taffis 

Importantly smart meters are the way that a wider range of TOU tariffs can be offered.

[Deleted User]

Section62 said:

Dolor said:

The industry has to find innovative ways of managing voltage and frequency as more intermittent renewables come online. At the moment, if your home voltage exceeds 253volts it requires the DNO to adjust your local transformer. What if this could be done dynamically by monitoring the voltage supplied to your home every 30 minutes, and then adjusting the voltage automatically at a major transformer site? It might even save you some money.

https://www.northernpowergrid.com/sites/default/files/assets/6480.pdf

From your link -

Do I need to have a smart meter to have my voltage optimised?  
No – the BEET-Box will read smart meter voltage data and feed it back to Northern Powergrid,
who can then optimise the voltage for all customers.

In other words, it only needs one or two monitoring points for "thousands of customers", not one in every household.

I had this conversation with a senior manager from SPEN. SPEN has launched a similar but slightly different trial in Wrexham. I was told that it requires more than just a few smart meters to get optimised voltages at an area distribution level. 

Nine months ago, my home voltage was peaking in excess of 256.5volts which was causing various home items to disconnect from the Grid. After pulling my smart meter 30 minute voltage data, the DNO tapped my local transformer down to 240volts. They then had to go downstream of my transformer and check two sub-transformers to ensure that they were still getting voltages in excess of 216.2volts. One of the two had to have a tap moved to output a higher voltage to the homes connected to it.

Section62

[Deleted User] said:

Section62 said:

From your link -

Do I need to have a smart meter to have my voltage optimised?  
No – the BEET-Box will read smart meter voltage data and feed it back to Northern Powergrid,
who can then optimise the voltage for all customers.

In other words, it only needs one or two monitoring points for "thousands of customers", not one in every household.

I had this conversation with a senior manager from SPEN. SPEN has launched a similar but slightly different trial in Wrexham. I was told that it requires more than just a few smart meters to get optimised voltages at an area distribution level. 

But apparently not, according to Northern Powergrid's information.

I tend to go with Northern Powergrid's assessment - the voltage on each nominally 230v network will be approximately the same within any given street/village.  Measuring the voltage near the middle, or at each end, should give a reasonable value for the supply voltage in that area.  Measuring the voltage at every property may give more confidence in the accuracy of the data, but that's about it.

In any event, there will be a voltage drop within the local 230v network, and within each property.  Getting a goldilocks voltage for every household/appliance would need huge investment in booster transformers - on top of the investment required to make every transformer's tappings remotely adjustable. (if that is the plan)

This is one of those things where the data provided by smart meters can help manage the grid better, but it isn't a valid reason for compelling everyone to have one.

TadleyBaggie

Tiger_greeneyes said:

I really don't like the idea of any kind of smart meter, I'm still resisting a water meter - my bills would definitely increase with one.

That's not a like for like comparison. If you don't have a water meter and you are a big user, not having meter is a definite plus. If you have a "dumb" electric meter, and you provide readings, you pay for your exact usage. If you have a smart meter, you don't have to provide readings and you pay for (the same) exact usage.

MWT

Mobtr said:

It will depend on if your suppliers system can bill you on a single rate without having to change your meter. Some suppliers can put you on a totaliser tariff which is still a 2 rate meter, you still give both readings but you are charged both rates at the 1 rate meter prices. If OFTM can’t do this then in order to go onto the single rate tariff you would have to have your meter exchanged, this is where the insistence of having the smart meter comes in. There are very few old style meters around now so yes, then can insist on a smart meter & yes they can keep you on the E7 if you refuse. 

This would be correct I believe.

Although many suppliers can and do allow customers with an E7 meter to be on a single rate tariff, it is not as far as I am aware an obligation to do that...

So changing from E7 to single-rate can require a meter replacement, and well, the rest flows from there as said...

QrizB

Tiger_greeneyes said:

I've been speaking with my electricity company, Outfox The Market who I've been with for a few years. I'm currently on an Economy 7 tariff but that's more expensive for me than their Standard tariff. I've asked to be changed to the Standard tariff but they won't do it unless I agree to a smart meter, which we don't want.

Getting back to basics, do you have a dual-fuel account with Outfox The Market or are you electricity-only? How much electricity do you use in a year, typically?

Outfox The Market have different SVTs for single-fuel and dual-fuel customers. The dual-fuel version is quite conventional but the single-fuel one has no standing charge. This might sound attractive but the unit rates are higher than usual and if you are an electric-only customer who uses more than the reference amount of electricity (3100kWh/yr for single-rate, 4200kWh/yr for E7) you could be better off switching supplier to eg. EDF.

Also, they're in trouble with Ofgem.

wild666

All a smart meter should do is tell you your usage in kWh instead on M3 or ft3 and you have an IHD that tells you, or it should tell you, how much you have used as you go through the day. It also means you won't have to give monthly readings to your provider, it should be the same with any type of smart meter. The one exception is that the smart meter can also act as a prepayment meter for those that like to prepay for their electric and gas usage.

dil1976

Uxb1 said:

RogerBareford said:

I just don't understand why people would care what type of meter their electricity is measured with.

We could have peak time of use tarrifs introduced - only possible with smart meters.
We could have what Norway is introducing which is penal rates if the consumer uses more than a certain amount of energy over some preceeding measuring period applied for the rest of the measuring period.

Surely if they want to introduce these and want people on smart meters, all they have to do is make those not on them is make them pay a even higher premium for their gas and electric?

MWT

dil1976 said:

Uxb1 said:

RogerBareford said:

I just don't understand why people would care what type of meter their electricity is measured with.

We could have peak time of use tarrifs introduced - only possible with smart meters.
We could have what Norway is introducing which is penal rates if the consumer uses more than a certain amount of energy over some preceeding measuring period applied for the rest of the measuring period.

Surely if they want to introduce these and want people on smart meters, all they have to do is make those not on them is make them pay a even higher premium for their gas and electric?

It hasn't been necessary yet, but yes, eventually it is probable that to access the lowest rates a smart meter will be required, in the same way that it is currently only possible to access the specialised EV tariffs with a smart meter.

It is the mistake that those claiming that smart meters enable high peak rate charging continue to make, if it becomes necessary, the smart meter will be used to enable lower charging out of the peak times...