Energy company refuses to change tariff without a smart meter?

Section62

MWT said:

It is the mistake that those claiming that smart meters enable high peak rate charging continue to make, if it becomes necessary, the smart meter will be used to enable lower charging out of the peak times...

At the moment the way in which TOU pricing will develop is all speculation, so it can't really be a "mistake" to think anything.

The concern I have is smart meters could enable the suppliers to charge very high rates in the high peak hours, which may be balanced out by cheaper rates in off-peak times, but from experience people do really struggle to timeshift much of their consumption - there are some things you need to do when you need to do them, so unless people also have battery storage, they will have no alternative but to pay eye-watering rates in the high-peak.

If it were easy, more people would be on E7.

If you have evidence that suppliers will be prevented from charging high-peak rates (e.g. for 7am to 9am) then that would be reassuring to many people I'm sure.

MWT

Section62 said:

The concern I have is smart meters could enable the suppliers to charge very high rates in the high peak hours, which may be balanced out by cheaper rates in off-peak times, but from experience people do really struggle to timeshift much of their consumption - there are some things you need to do when you need to do them, so unless people also have battery storage, they will have no alternative but to pay eye-watering rates in the high-peak.

The mistake is assuming that not having a smart meter would necessarily protect you from this...

Yes, there are a lot of assumptions being made, but it is difficult to envisage a situation in which it will be advantageous not to have one, as it is far to easy to interfere with the data comms on these things, so it makes a lot more sense to flip things around and make it advantageous to have one in working order.

We do have to deal with the reality that peak hours are going to cost more and the pressure on the suppliers to increase the granularity of their tariffs is strong with the settlement systems moving quickly to half-hour now so their need to be able to track at the half-hour level is only going to increase.

MattMattMattUK

Section62 said:

MWT said:

It is the mistake that those claiming that smart meters enable high peak rate charging continue to make, if it becomes necessary, the smart meter will be used to enable lower charging out of the peak times...

At the moment the way in which TOU pricing will develop is all speculation, so it can't really be a "mistake" to think anything.

The concern I have is smart meters could enable the suppliers to charge very high rates in the high peak hours, which may be balanced out by cheaper rates in off-peak times, but from experience people do really struggle to timeshift much of their consumption - there are some things you need to do when you need to do them, so unless people also have battery storage, they will have no alternative but to pay eye-watering rates in the high-peak.

The thing is that they will not be able to penalise those with smart meters, so it will be that everyone pays the high peak rates, with discount rates at other times.

Section62 said:

If it were easy, more people would be on E7.

There is a vast difference between shifting high usage outside of a 08:00-09:00 and 17:00-19:00 window and having to shift it to 23:00-06:00. Heating, washing machines, dishwashers etc. can all be shifted outside of those windows easily and with little inconvenience, where as to try and shift them all to overnight usage does not work for most. 

Section62 said:

If you have evidence that suppliers will be prevented from charging high-peak rates (e.g. for 7am to 9am) then that would be reassuring to many people I'm sure.

You cannot disprove a negative. Do you have any reliable evidence that any of the smart-meter only peak tariffs, or other smart-meter conspiracy theories are true?

Section62

MWT said:

Section62 said:

The concern I have is smart meters could enable the suppliers to charge very high rates in the high peak hours, which may be balanced out by cheaper rates in off-peak times, but from experience people do really struggle to timeshift much of their consumption - there are some things you need to do when you need to do them, so unless people also have battery storage, they will have no alternative but to pay eye-watering rates in the high-peak.

The mistake is assuming that not having a smart meter would necessarily protect you from this...

That wasn't apparent from your post.

However, it has been the case that people with legacy systems have enjoyed a fair degree of protection when governmental policy has introduced new methods and/or charging.  For example, VED banding changes haven't been applied retrospectively, analogue TV users were given help to go digital.

There's no evidence I've seen that people who still have a non-smart meter will be 'punished' in the form of higher charges 24/7 - and until everyone can have a functional smart meter it would be grossly unfair to penalise people who can't have (a functional) one because technically they don't work in their circumstances.

MWT said:

Yes, there are a lot of assumptions being made, but it is difficult to envisage a situation in which it will be advantageous not to have one, as it is far to easy to interfere with the data comms on these things, so it makes a lot more sense to flip things around and make it advantageous to have one in working order.

So people whose smart meter goes wrong will be 'punished'?  I didn't see that in the adverts.

More seriously, Ofgem will need to come up with a fair system of estimating charges under a TOU regime if the TOU data isn't available.  The current system of estimating charges with a faulty single-rate meter is bad enough, but to let the energy company randomly charge different rates on the basis of guesswork, that would be a step too far.

If the system is arranged so it is "advantageous" to have a working smart meter, then protections will be required for those whose smart meter isn't working through no fault of their own.  Which kind of limits the possible advantageousness.

MWT said:

We do have to deal with the reality that peak hours are going to cost more and the pressure on the suppliers to increase the granularity of their tariffs is strong with the settlement systems moving quickly to half-hour now so their need to be able to track at the half-hour level is only going to increase.

Agreed.

And in my view that should be front and centre of the smart metering advertising campaign.  "This is going to hurt" should be the message, not fluffy cartoon characters or a cute fluffy Einstein character telling us all how much money we'll save.

There have been fundamental dishonesties in the approach to UK energy policy for the last 20 years or so - the way smart metering is being 'sold' is just a further dishonesty.  The public need to be told clearly what needs to happen and how it will be achieved.

Personally I have no problem whatsoever with TOU charging, and have opted for that system since I first became an energy customer.  However, from work I've done in related fields, I know that the ill-defined thing which is coming will have some very serious negative consequences for some people - it is already happening - and an honest debate is needed.

dil1976

Section62 said:

There's no evidence I've seen that people who still have a non-smart meter will be 'punished' in the form of higher charges 24/7 - and until everyone can have a functional smart meter it would be grossly unfair to penalise people who can't have (a functional) one because technically they don't work in their circumstances.

There is a difference between choosing to not have one fitted and also having one that doesn't function correctly, as eventually they will find a way to ensure they all do function correctly.

liviboy

I still find this a silly conversation to be having re TOU.

I worked in Milan, Italy in 2011-2013 and my electricity was on a standard TOU tariff where I had 3 rates that were roughly as follows:

Very expensive: Mon-Fri 0800-2000
mid range - Mon-Fri 2000-0800
very cheap: Fri 2000 - Sun 23:59

So basically all my washing, ironing, batch cooking, etc. got done at the weekend.

The fact they had this all setup, automatically sending the readings, etc. and this was cash payment on receipt of the bill makes me so annoyed at how slow we have been here to setup TOU!

Ultrasonic

Section62 said:

If you have evidence that suppliers will be prevented from charging high-peak rates (e.g. for 7am to 9am) then that would be reassuring to many people I'm sure.

Fundamentally I don't think they should be. Using pricing to help limit peak demand may be necessary to reduce long-term reliance on fossil fuels.

Section62

MattMattMattUK said:

The thing is that they will not be able to penalise those with smart meters, so it will be that everyone pays the high peak rates, with discount rates at other times.

What about cost-neutrality?  Why have you excluded that possibility?

The whole point of TOU charging is to modify behaviour.  If you don't charge more at peak times (and more the peakier it gets) then you won't effect change.

MattMattMattUK said:

Section62 said:

If it were easy, more people would be on E7.

There is a vast difference between shifting high usage outside of a 08:00-09:00 and 17:00-19:00 window and having to shift it to 23:00-06:00. Heating, washing machines, dishwashers etc. can all be shifted outside of those windows easily and with little inconvenience, where as to try and shift them all to overnight usage does not work for most.

Easy for you to say, and it is what I do, but I know that lots of people can't necessarily do that.

Furthermore, the official advice from many fire services is not to use white goods such as washing machines, tumble dryers and dishwashers overnight or while you are out.  So for many families, they will face the choice of paying high peak rates, or ignoring the advice of their local fire service.  Or disturbing their neighbours.

MattMattMattUK said:

Section62 said:

If you have evidence that suppliers will be prevented from charging high-peak rates (e.g. for 7am to 9am) then that would be reassuring to many people I'm sure.

You cannot disprove a negative.

I'm not asking for a negative to be disproved.  I'm asking for any evidence that a decision to prevent high-peak charging has been made.  If it hasn't been, then it is pure speculation whether or not high-peak charging will be a thing.

MattMattMattUK said:

Do you have any reliable evidence that any of the smart-meter only peak tariffs, or other smart-meter conspiracy theories are true?

And there you go with the belittling language again.

If you want a serious discussion then please be serious and respectful.

[Deleted User]

If you accept that one of the reasons behind the introduction of time-of-use tariffs is to better match demand with supply, then there are many ways that this can be achieved.

Octopus, for example, offers its Agile tariff with 48 changing 30 minute periods a day which are changed each day. Consumers are selecting this tariff at the moment because Octopus has imposed a maximum unit charge of 35p/kWh. Octopus is very much an outlier.

Time-of-use tariffs are common in many parts of the World. They are usually based on 3-tier pricing with the cheapest energy overnight and at weekends. These tariffs are also seasonal. For example, California has very high electricity demand in the summer but less in winter.

Many countries now offer tariffs with maximum power limits at certain high demand times. The lower the maximum power limit - in kW - that the consumer will accept,  the cheaper the tariff. Failure to heed warnings - via IHD, text etc - of excess power use will result in remote disconnection. Frequent breaches of the agreed limit, and the supplier will move the consumer to a more expensive tariff with a higher power limit.

For those who say ‘I want none of this, I will keep my present meter’, suppliers also offer non-smart meter tariffs. In Canada, for example,  there are variations of tiered tariffs (which change by season) where the consumer pays, say, ‘x’p/kWh for a certain number of units each month followed by a much higher unit price for the rest.

https://theenergyst.com/time-of-use-tariffs-for-all-ofgem-prepares-ground-for-smart-grid/

Section62

Ultrasonic said:

Section62 said:

If you have evidence that suppliers will be prevented from charging high-peak rates (e.g. for 7am to 9am) then that would be reassuring to many people I'm sure.

Fundamentally I don't think they should be. Using pricing to help limit peak demand may be necessary to reduce long-term reliance on fossil fuels.

Completely agree.

My complaint isn't with TOU and peak-rate charging - it is with the way the programme is being spun as saving people money and being more convenient than traditional meters.  And ignoring all the 'bad' stuff, like the inconvenience* of doing your washing at 2AM.

(*not my personal view, but what many people have told me.)

It is about the level of honesty in what the public are being told.