party fence wall repairs - how to approach this?

Jab88

eddddy said:

Jab88 said:

@Giddypip our surveyor said it’s a party fence line wall and there will be a 50/50 shared repair responsibility with the adjoining owner. 

The surveyor probably concluded that because of the location of the wall.

If it's on the boundary line (i.e. half on your land and half on the neighbours) - it will be a party wall.

If it was completely on your land - it would be your wall.


To double check, see how the garden wall is aligned with the party wall in the house. Does it line up with the party wall in the house, or is it fully on your side of the party wall in the house, or is it fully on the neighbours side of the party wall in the house?

@eddddy it's right in the middle actually. hope the photo from the clearance guys shows this well so I think the costs should be shared. this is the beginning of the wall, towards the end there is nothing left actually so it's quite bad. we don't live there yet but want this sorted out as soon as possible to get some privacy and it's also not very safe. 

theoretica

Your neighbour has no requirement to enhance your privacy - if you want that, prepare to pay for it.

Safety, yes, that seems a shared responsibility, but taking the wall down would make it safe, and leaving the bottom layer of bricks to mark the boundary.  That is really all you can insist on.  Rebuilding or repairing the wall, or replacing it with a taller fence are things you want - but with joint responsibility comes joint decisions, and if your neighbours do not want the same thing you can't force them.

p00hsticks

Jab88 said:

eddddy said:

Jab88 said:

@Giddypip our surveyor said it’s a party fence line wall and there will be a 50/50 shared repair responsibility with the adjoining owner. 

The surveyor probably concluded that because of the location of the wall.

If it's on the boundary line (i.e. half on your land and half on the neighbours) - it will be a party wall.

If it was completely on your land - it would be your wall.


To double check, see how the garden wall is aligned with the party wall in the house. Does it line up with the party wall in the house, or is it fully on your side of the party wall in the house, or is it fully on the neighbours side of the party wall in the house?

want this sorted out as soon as possible to get some privacy

I can't see that you're ever going to get that much privacy when you're overlooked by that big block of flats in the background - I can't imagine that even a six foot fence would do much to prevent them being able to look in from that hieight.

Bendy_House

Jab, do as Giddypip has said - check your deeds.

From what you have shown, this is indeed a shared wall as the actual boundary line runs down the middle of it. However, unless your - and your neighb's - deeds state that they 'must' be maintained, and who by, then there might be little you can do to force the issue.

I would hope, tho', that it is mentioned, and that it's a shared responsibility (still not sure how enforceable, but I think it can be).

First, tho', quotes. I presume you don't want a rebuilt wall like what's there? I say this mainly from the point of cost, but also that fact that it won't give you the privacy you want - a taller 6' high brick wall will cost a lot more...

So, consider what it is you want there. I'd suggest concrete posts and gravel boards, supporting whatever type of fence you like - hey can vary a lot in cost. Armed with a couple of options, and the info in the deeds, then approach the owner.

If they are amenable, then the new fence should also run down the middle, and remain a shared responsibility. If you find yourself in the horrible position that they won't agree to contribute, and that there's little you can do about it, then your options are to either take on the whole cost yourself (bang goes your fancy new kitchen...), or to just erect a tall fence on your side of this wall, leaving the collapsing wall in situ. You will then, of course, effectively lose another 4" of garden width (and bang goes your fancy new bathroom).

canaldumidi

Some dodgy assumptions in this thread. I'd be interested to question the surveyor as to how he reached his conlusion.

* Ownership of the wall itself lies with whoever built/paid for it originally. I assume you don't know.

* the owner has a duty to keep it safe, but not to otherwise repair it. Or indeed replace it. Unless the deeds specify a requirement for a wall, there is no requirement for a wall.

* Ownership of the boundary (which is a separate matter) is notoriously hard to pin down.

Sometimes it is specified in deeds with e 'T' - ut not here.

Sometimes it can be deduced from other properties in the street eg facing in the fron of theproperties, ALL property owners own the party walls on the right (or the left!). Speak to other owners in the street.

Sometimes it can be found in the original Developer's/Builder's plans.

* edddy's suggestion is wise. Don't go in insisting as a party wall neigbour must pay half. Ask instead. Along with 2+ quotes, hopefully reasonable ones.

* I'd suggest re-building to original height and then attach a trellis to your side and grow roses (or whatever) up the trellis.

eddddy

canaldumidi said:

* Ownership of the wall itself lies with whoever built/paid for it originally. I assume you don't know.

That doesn't seem to be relevant in this case.

The wall straddles the boundary which makes it a 'Party Fence' wall. I assume that's how the surveyor reached their conclusion.

If one property owner built and owned it, it would be on their own land. And if part of their wall straddled the boundary onto their neighbours land it would be trespass - so that's unlikely.


Here's what a RICS surveyor says about 'Party Fence' walls:

Essentially, a party fence wall is a wall that sits astride the boundary between two separate pieces of land, with different owners on each side of the wall. Part of the wall above ground (not just the foundations, or footings) must be astride the boundary. The party fence wall does not form part of a building or structure on either portion of land.

An example of a party fence wall is a wall between the gardens of two properties, which acts as a single boundary feature. Because the ownership of a party fence wall is shared, both owners have certain rights and responsibilities under the Act. As such, party fence walls are included in the Party Wall Act. Certain works to party fence walls would require a Notice to be served under the Party Wall Act, to the relevant adjoining Owners. As with party walls, and party structures, once a Notice has been served, the processes as described in the Act need to be followed, before works can commence.

Link: https://hardingsurveyors.co.uk/party-wall-matters/party-fence-wall/

JReacher1

p00hsticks said:

Jab88 said:

eddddy said:

Jab88 said:

@Giddypip our surveyor said it’s a party fence line wall and there will be a 50/50 shared repair responsibility with the adjoining owner. 

The surveyor probably concluded that because of the location of the wall.

If it's on the boundary line (i.e. half on your land and half on the neighbours) - it will be a party wall.

If it was completely on your land - it would be your wall.


To double check, see how the garden wall is aligned with the party wall in the house. Does it line up with the party wall in the house, or is it fully on your side of the party wall in the house, or is it fully on the neighbours side of the party wall in the house?

want this sorted out as soon as possible to get some privacy

I can't see that you're ever going to get that much privacy when you're overlooked by that big block of flats in the background - I can't imagine that even a six foot fence would do much to prevent them being able to look in from that hieight.

I think there is quite a big difference between some flats overlooking your garden quite a few metres away and someone sat next to you with no fence/wall between you. 

Slithery

JReacher1 said:

p00hsticks said:

Jab88 said:

eddddy said:

Jab88 said:

@Giddypip our surveyor said it’s a party fence line wall and there will be a 50/50 shared repair responsibility with the adjoining owner. 

The surveyor probably concluded that because of the location of the wall.

If it's on the boundary line (i.e. half on your land and half on the neighbours) - it will be a party wall.

If it was completely on your land - it would be your wall.


To double check, see how the garden wall is aligned with the party wall in the house. Does it line up with the party wall in the house, or is it fully on your side of the party wall in the house, or is it fully on the neighbours side of the party wall in the house?

want this sorted out as soon as possible to get some privacy

I can't see that you're ever going to get that much privacy when you're overlooked by that big block of flats in the background - I can't imagine that even a six foot fence would do much to prevent them being able to look in from that hieight.

I think there is quite a big difference between some flats overlooking your garden quite a few metres away and someone sat next to you with no fence/wall between you. 

The wall is only a couple of feet high - it provides no privacy whatsoever.

Jab88

JReacher1 said:

p00hsticks said:

Jab88 said:

eddddy said:

Jab88 said:

@Giddypip our surveyor said it’s a party fence line wall and there will be a 50/50 shared repair responsibility with the adjoining owner. 

The surveyor probably concluded that because of the location of the wall.

If it's on the boundary line (i.e. half on your land and half on the neighbours) - it will be a party wall.

If it was completely on your land - it would be your wall.


To double check, see how the garden wall is aligned with the party wall in the house. Does it line up with the party wall in the house, or is it fully on your side of the party wall in the house, or is it fully on the neighbours side of the party wall in the house?

want this sorted out as soon as possible to get some privacy

I can't see that you're ever going to get that much privacy when you're overlooked by that big block of flats in the background - I can't imagine that even a six foot fence would do much to prevent them being able to look in from that hieight.

I think there is quite a big difference between some flats overlooking your garden quite a few metres away and someone sat next to you with no fence/wall between you. 

Completely agree with this @JReacher1 the flats overlooking are actually further away than the photo indicates and it doesn't bother me as much as directly seeing the neighbours garden with no fence/wall in between.

Jab88

Slithery said:

JReacher1 said:

p00hsticks said:

Jab88 said:

eddddy said:

Jab88 said:

@Giddypip our surveyor said it’s a party fence line wall and there will be a 50/50 shared repair responsibility with the adjoining owner. 

The surveyor probably concluded that because of the location of the wall.

If it's on the boundary line (i.e. half on your land and half on the neighbours) - it will be a party wall.

If it was completely on your land - it would be your wall.


To double check, see how the garden wall is aligned with the party wall in the house. Does it line up with the party wall in the house, or is it fully on your side of the party wall in the house, or is it fully on the neighbours side of the party wall in the house?

want this sorted out as soon as possible to get some privacy

I can't see that you're ever going to get that much privacy when you're overlooked by that big block of flats in the background - I can't imagine that even a six foot fence would do much to prevent them being able to look in from that hieight.

I think there is quite a big difference between some flats overlooking your garden quite a few metres away and someone sat next to you with no fence/wall between you. 

The wall is only a couple of feet high - it provides no privacy whatsoever.

the plan was to rebuild the wall and put a fence/trellis on top.