House title in one name only and care home fees

lisyloo

One option to look at is an annuity.

these figures are just to illustrate the concept and not representative, but let’s say his assets are £350k, you buy an annuity for say £175k that pays her care fees forever (with set increase built in).
now you might “lose” and she lives one year and you’ve overpaid and you may “win” and she lives 15 years, but it passes that risk onto the insurer (mostly).

one thing to note is that fees could rise more than the annuity planned for so after some time you can need a “top up “ annuity. 

its something worth considering.

also look into the care fees cap. Note that this is for care only and not board and lodging.

is she claiming attendance allowance?
it would be taken to pay for fees but will reduce the bill so still worth doing.
and funded nursing care? (That means the nursing part is paid for by the state).
note her income (state pension, attendance allowance) will reduce the bill.

i echo the comments about local authority provision.
she could be moved away from you and probably won’t want to be moved either 

Browntoa

It's deliberate deprivation of assets that should , in the normal scheme of things, be expected to pass on to the mother. With no will it would have been 100% of the marital estate 

Either way , it's too late to start attempting to "protect" assets . Proper estate planning should have been done years ago 

Keep_pedalling

Robrob1981 said:

Keep_pedalling said:

If you father makes a will with no provision for his wife I think it possible that the LA may challenge the will under under the Inheritance (Provisions for Family and Dependants) Act 1975 on behalf of your mother. Does anyone currently have power of attorney for her?

You say he does not want all his assets to be eaten up by care costs, but what he is proposing is attempting to avoid any of these assets to be used. You and your sibling don’t seem too happy with this approach so could you persuade him to compromise with 50% to his children and the rest to his wife to make her as comfortable as possible at the end of her days?

You could of cause make variations to the will after he has died if he insists on going down this route.

The illness mum has has come on very suddenly - probably caused by hospital stay for broken hip.
We had no warning really so no power of attorney in place. Dad is just in the process of drawing up his first will and his power of attorney now. 

elsien

Unfortunately illness or accident can take someone’s mental faculties away without warning and at any age which is why it is wise to put LPAs in place while you are fit and healthy and is something you should do for your selves as well.

You and you sibling should apply for deputyship for your mother ASAP as it takes a considerable time to put in place. Without it life can very difficult for you especially in managing her finances.

https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy/apply-deputy

bobster2

Browntoa said:

It's deliberate deprivation of assets that should , in the normal scheme of things, be expected to pass on to the mother. With no will it would have been 100% of the marital estate 

Either way , it's too late to start attempting to "protect" assets . Proper estate planning should have been done years ago 

As I pointed out earlier - the OPs situation falls under the Inheritance (Provision for Family & Dependants) Act 1975 not "deprivation of assets" legislation (the latter is concerned with someone intentionally reducing their own assets to avoid paying their own care costs - not the situation here).

As such - the rule of thumb as to what's reasonable is not what the wife would receive if the husband died without a will (under rules of intestacy) but rather what she would have expected to get if the relationship had ended with divorce instead of death (probably about 50% for a long marriage). Where the estate is small - a greater share for the widow might be considered appropriate.

It is not too late to plan - obviously you need proper legal advice on this. But a Will which leaves 50% of the estate to the wife could be seen as justifiable - although the local authority could argue she needs a larger share.

Keep_pedalling

Robrob1981 said:

Keep_pedalling said:

If you father makes a will with no provision for his wife I think it possible that the LA may challenge the will under under the Inheritance (Provisions for Family and Dependants) Act 1975 on behalf of your mother. Does anyone currently have power of attorney for her?

You say he does not want all his assets to be eaten up by care costs, but what he is proposing is attempting to avoid any of these assets to be used. You and your sibling don’t seem too happy with this approach so could you persuade him to compromise with 50% to his children and the rest to his wife to make her as comfortable as possible at the end of her days?

You could of cause make variations to the will after he has died if he insists on going down this route.

His opinion is that the state will pay the costs anyway so it will make no difference to mum one way or the other.

I was dubious about all this and could care less about inheritance personally tbh.
I will mention the 'family and dependants act' to him. He is currently getting advice from a solicitor drawing up his will anyway.
I know for a fact that if mum was fit and well and living at home he would have left her the majority of his estate.
Thanks for the advice.  
elsien

Your father is having to cope with 2 dreadful situations with both his and your mother’s sudden decline in health, so apart from informing him potential challenge of his will and the fact that you want to prioritise your mother’s care options over your own inheritance I would not push this too hard with him.

If he goes ahead and does this you and your sibling will have control over what happens to his assets after his death. The will does not bind you to accept your bequest in full, and you can divert part or all of your inheritance to your mother through a deed of variation. 

lisyloo

bobster2 said:

 although the local authority could argue she needs a larger share.

I’m sure you know more than me so I’m asking to educate myself rather than question what you are saying.......

but why would she need a larger share considering the care cap, when a 50% share is at least £175k and the care cap lower than that

elsien

Returning to a previous comment, the local authority does not have a duty to find the cheapest place. They have a duty to find somewhere that can meet her needs and is in her best interests, but can also take cost into account.
That is likely to be somewhere without a big top up but they do not absolutely have to find the cheapest. 

The card cap isn’t in place yet, and given utility costs I suspect some of the figures will have to change. 

lisyloo

elsien said:

Returning to a previous comment, the local authority does not have a duty to find the cheapest place. They have a duty to find somewhere that can meet her needs and is in her best interests, but can also take cost into account.
That is likely to be somewhere without a big top up but they do not absolutely have to find the cheapest. 

The card cap isn’t in place yet, and given utility costs I suspect some of the figures will have to change. 

It's a postcode lottery to an extent but having been through it I can assure you that costs are at the forefront for the local authority given the scale of costs we are looking at.
Our LA wanted to split up my MIL and FIL when space was available in the same (relatively cheap) home to save a few quid.
Fortunately we provided very strong advocacy and we argued very strongly for them to be kept together.
It was only 11 days in the end but a relatively peaceful 11 days that they could spend together as we could wheel her wheelchair to his bedside.
They were married for over 60 years, so they considerations like closeness of family will not always be given priority.
Location can affect people very much when you consider spouses/friends may be in wheelchairs or unable to drive etc.

What I witnessed was a very strong emphasis on costs and a lot of pressure put on other family members at every possible opportunity to pay a top-up.

Thankyou - I didn't realise the care cap had not come in yet.

pollypenny

Robrob1981 said:

My parents are married and in their early 80's.
Unfortunately mum has recently had to go into a care home as she is not on her feet and has dementia. The care package has not been worked out yet and she is still under free NHS care for a few weeks more.
Sadly my dad has recently found out that he is terminally ill. He probably has 6 months or so to live.
We have been looking at finances to fund mum's care and discovered that the house is in my dad's name only and there are no joint savings.
Mum has a small amount of savings (about 30k) and a small state pension. Dad has the house (£250k approx), a private pension in his name only plus substantial savings (100k approx I think but am not sure).
He doesn't want all his money to be eaten up in care home fees when he is no longer with us so plans to leave the house and savings to his two children in his will. It goes without saying that us kids intend to do right by our mum whatever happens and will be topping up any state care home fees so she is comfortable.
My question is can he do this?
Will social services attach a lean on the house?
Will they go after my dad's assets?
Please only answer if you know what you are talking about and no judgey comments please. 
Thank you

Whilst I have sympathy with you and your parents, OP, I think it's a shame that after what is, apparently, a long and happy marriage your father considers the 'family' assets as 'his' money. 

Any funds should be used to benefit both adults in their needs. If there's anything left to pass on that's a bonus. 

Sea_Shell

pollypenny said:

Robrob1981 said:

My parents are married and in their early 80's.
Unfortunately mum has recently had to go into a care home as she is not on her feet and has dementia. The care package has not been worked out yet and she is still under free NHS care for a few weeks more.
Sadly my dad has recently found out that he is terminally ill. He probably has 6 months or so to live.
We have been looking at finances to fund mum's care and discovered that the house is in my dad's name only and there are no joint savings.
Mum has a small amount of savings (about 30k) and a small state pension. Dad has the house (£250k approx), a private pension in his name only plus substantial savings (100k approx I think but am not sure).
He doesn't want all his money to be eaten up in care home fees when he is no longer with us so plans to leave the house and savings to his two children in his will. It goes without saying that us kids intend to do right by our mum whatever happens and will be topping up any state care home fees so she is comfortable.
My question is can he do this?
Will social services attach a lean on the house?
Will they go after my dad's assets?
Please only answer if you know what you are talking about and no judgey comments please. 
Thank you

Whilst I have sympathy with you and your parents, OP, I think it's a shame that after what is, apparently, a long and happy marriage your father considers the 'family' assets as 'his' money. 

Any funds should be used to benefit both adults in their needs. If there's anything left to pass on that's a bonus. 

Quite.

If he truly loves his wife, why wouldn't he want her to have the best care "his" money could buy her after he's gone?

Is it a feeling that her care has (or should have) "already been paid for through our taxes"?