Non-Refundable Deposit - What are my consumer rights?

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

OP the CMA covers this with guidance based on the Consumer Rights Act: 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/450440/Unfair_Terms_Main_Guidance.pdf

About three quarters of the way down, sections 5.13 and 5.14 covers why the trader should retain their loses rather than an arbitrary amount labelled as a non-refundable deposit. 

You’d have to ask the venue for a breakdown of their costs and state you expect any additional amount refunded. 

I’d send them the info at the link and if they won’t budge send a letter before action, your £500 figure seems reasonable on the face of it  (it may not be but if they refuse to engage how are you to know the inner workings of their business so it’s a starting point). 

Ath_Wat

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Ath_Wat said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Sandtree said:

weddingsos2023 said:

Thank you for your comments. 

I emailed them at the beginning of the week to go through some options as I didn't want to go in blazing demanding a deposit back I wanted to test the waters and go over some options and gather as much information as I possibly could before going for our deposit. 

The wedding & reception there is only £6448 and we paid £2000 deposit to secure the date and then have paid an additional £2300 on top of the £2000. 

They have said that they can return the £2300 and will do up until 9 months before and then it will decrease. 

I don't mind them keeping around £500 for 'administrate costs' - I just feel to keep the full £2000 when these 'terms and conditions' was never made clear to us upon payment, and even after a year of originally booking no contract has been signed with them to agree to these contractual conditions.  

A contract in England is formed when there is an offer, acceptance and consideration (aka payment). They offered to hire you the venue for £6,448, you accepted and then made consideration by way of the initial £2,000 payment and so a contract was formed. 

Deposits by their very nature are non-refundable by default else they are 99% pointless, the fact you chose not to ask questions about the T&Cs before binding the contract doesn't invalidate the fact a deposit isn't refundable. Next time read the contract before agreeing to it by paying... a signature is totally unnecessary in UK contract law but is just a handy form of proof. 

Don't under estimate the cost of readvertising the property... a quick look on Google Adwords and the estimate is £8.50 per click (that's click, not purchase) for "wedding venue Essex"... I'd be surprised if they get a 1% conversion rate from clicks and but if they did that means there is £850 of advertising fees before you even start getting into costs of showing people round the venue that dont then book, dealing with all the enquiries for dates that aren't available etc etc. £2k total does feel high but not necessarily ridiculously so. 

Is the deposit not just reassurance from the customer that they are serious about the contract and more likely to go ahead.

How is there any reassurance for the company that the customer is serious if the deposit is automatically refundable?

Have you deliberately selectively quoted my post to imply I said they should be refunded in full?

Or are you asking the what is the benefit of the trader taking an advance payment from which they can retain their losses in the event the contract doesn’t go ahead due to fault on the consumer’s part? The answer to which would be obvious.

Either way I don’t understand the point of your post? 

It's nothing to do with the rest of your post, that is why I quoted that one line.  It's one question on that one thing you said.

You bolded in the  post you replied to: "Deposits by their very nature are non-refundable by default else they are 99% pointless". 
You replied to that "Is the deposit not just reassurance from the customer that they are serious about the contract and more likely to go ahead."
So I said "How is there any reassurance for the company that the customer is serious if the deposit is automatically refundable?"

So you think the deposit is  non-refundable to the amount of any losses.  So it's certainly not  "just to show they are serious" rather than being non refundable, is it.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Ath_Wat said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Ath_Wat said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Sandtree said:

weddingsos2023 said:

Thank you for your comments. 

I emailed them at the beginning of the week to go through some options as I didn't want to go in blazing demanding a deposit back I wanted to test the waters and go over some options and gather as much information as I possibly could before going for our deposit. 

The wedding & reception there is only £6448 and we paid £2000 deposit to secure the date and then have paid an additional £2300 on top of the £2000. 

They have said that they can return the £2300 and will do up until 9 months before and then it will decrease. 

I don't mind them keeping around £500 for 'administrate costs' - I just feel to keep the full £2000 when these 'terms and conditions' was never made clear to us upon payment, and even after a year of originally booking no contract has been signed with them to agree to these contractual conditions.  

A contract in England is formed when there is an offer, acceptance and consideration (aka payment). They offered to hire you the venue for £6,448, you accepted and then made consideration by way of the initial £2,000 payment and so a contract was formed. 

Deposits by their very nature are non-refundable by default else they are 99% pointless, the fact you chose not to ask questions about the T&Cs before binding the contract doesn't invalidate the fact a deposit isn't refundable. Next time read the contract before agreeing to it by paying... a signature is totally unnecessary in UK contract law but is just a handy form of proof. 

Don't under estimate the cost of readvertising the property... a quick look on Google Adwords and the estimate is £8.50 per click (that's click, not purchase) for "wedding venue Essex"... I'd be surprised if they get a 1% conversion rate from clicks and but if they did that means there is £850 of advertising fees before you even start getting into costs of showing people round the venue that dont then book, dealing with all the enquiries for dates that aren't available etc etc. £2k total does feel high but not necessarily ridiculously so. 

Is the deposit not just reassurance from the customer that they are serious about the contract and more likely to go ahead.

How is there any reassurance for the company that the customer is serious if the deposit is automatically refundable?

Have you deliberately selectively quoted my post to imply I said they should be refunded in full?

Or are you asking the what is the benefit of the trader taking an advance payment from which they can retain their losses in the event the contract doesn’t go ahead due to fault on the consumer’s part? The answer to which would be obvious.

Either way I don’t understand the point of your post? 

It's nothing to do with the rest of your post, that is why I quoted that one line.  It's one question on that one thing you said.

You bolded in the  post you replied to: "Deposits by their very nature are non-refundable by default else they are 99% pointless". 
You replied to that "Is the deposit not just reassurance from the customer that they are serious about the contract and more likely to go ahead."
So I said "How is there any reassurance for the company that the customer is serious if the deposit is automatically refundable?"

So you think the deposit is  non-refundable to the amount of any losses.  So it's certainly not  "just to show they are serious" rather than being non refundable, is it.

Yes it is...

The customer makes the deposit knowing the trader will easily retain their losses in the event the contract doesn't go ahead due  fault on the consumer's part, it is that that shows the customer is more likely to be serious. 

CKhalvashi

Jumblebumble said:

MalMonroe said:

Hi, this government document may help - 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cancelling-goods-or-services-guide-for-consumers/cancelling-goods-or-services#consumer-law-may-help-you

You do have rights, and as far as I'm aware, businesses aren't allowed to say "Under no circumstances is the deposit refundable".

The gov. document explains that any business can only charge disproportionate amounts if they are going to be unable to recoup any losses. 

I would think that with them having twelve months to resell the venue for a wedding, they'll manage that in no time at all.

In this case, the venue isn't going to lose out. 

If they're so popular, why not contact your local newspaper and see if they'd be interested in doing an article about this mean business if they refuse to play ball?

You may also be interested in information in the following link -

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/wedding-venues-advised-to-play-fair

It's from 2016 but still relevant.

Hmm
I have always wondered why airlines and hotels  can do exactly that unless the airline/hotel cancels the booking themselves

Because the prices can change rapidly.

I've bought flights for sub-£10 that have been £50 a few weeks later. Equally I've booked flights at £50 that were sub-£10 a few weeks later. It wouldn't be a balanced transaction if either way I could have the booking for £10.

There are specific exemptions in legislation for airlines and certain service providers, and although we're not obliged to, we will always give a voucher (not cash) if we run a sale affecting a specific booking after the booking was made if asked.

Ath_Wat

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Ath_Wat said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Ath_Wat said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Sandtree said:

weddingsos2023 said:

Thank you for your comments. 

I emailed them at the beginning of the week to go through some options as I didn't want to go in blazing demanding a deposit back I wanted to test the waters and go over some options and gather as much information as I possibly could before going for our deposit. 

The wedding & reception there is only £6448 and we paid £2000 deposit to secure the date and then have paid an additional £2300 on top of the £2000. 

They have said that they can return the £2300 and will do up until 9 months before and then it will decrease. 

I don't mind them keeping around £500 for 'administrate costs' - I just feel to keep the full £2000 when these 'terms and conditions' was never made clear to us upon payment, and even after a year of originally booking no contract has been signed with them to agree to these contractual conditions.  

A contract in England is formed when there is an offer, acceptance and consideration (aka payment). They offered to hire you the venue for £6,448, you accepted and then made consideration by way of the initial £2,000 payment and so a contract was formed. 

Deposits by their very nature are non-refundable by default else they are 99% pointless, the fact you chose not to ask questions about the T&Cs before binding the contract doesn't invalidate the fact a deposit isn't refundable. Next time read the contract before agreeing to it by paying... a signature is totally unnecessary in UK contract law but is just a handy form of proof. 

Don't under estimate the cost of readvertising the property... a quick look on Google Adwords and the estimate is £8.50 per click (that's click, not purchase) for "wedding venue Essex"... I'd be surprised if they get a 1% conversion rate from clicks and but if they did that means there is £850 of advertising fees before you even start getting into costs of showing people round the venue that dont then book, dealing with all the enquiries for dates that aren't available etc etc. £2k total does feel high but not necessarily ridiculously so. 

Is the deposit not just reassurance from the customer that they are serious about the contract and more likely to go ahead.

How is there any reassurance for the company that the customer is serious if the deposit is automatically refundable?

Have you deliberately selectively quoted my post to imply I said they should be refunded in full?

Or are you asking the what is the benefit of the trader taking an advance payment from which they can retain their losses in the event the contract doesn’t go ahead due to fault on the consumer’s part? The answer to which would be obvious.

Either way I don’t understand the point of your post? 

It's nothing to do with the rest of your post, that is why I quoted that one line.  It's one question on that one thing you said.

You bolded in the  post you replied to: "Deposits by their very nature are non-refundable by default else they are 99% pointless". 
You replied to that "Is the deposit not just reassurance from the customer that they are serious about the contract and more likely to go ahead."
So I said "How is there any reassurance for the company that the customer is serious if the deposit is automatically refundable?"

So you think the deposit is  non-refundable to the amount of any losses.  So it's certainly not  "just to show they are serious" rather than being non refundable, is it.

Yes it is...

The customer makes the deposit knowing the trader will easily retain their losses in the event the contract doesn't go ahead due  fault on the consumer's part, it is that that shows the customer is more likely to be serious. 

Yes, because it is non-refundable, at least in part.  Which is what the bolded line that you questioned said in the first place.

If you still don't understand I'm sorry, I really can't help you any more.

unholyangel

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Ath_Wat said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Sandtree said:

weddingsos2023 said:

Thank you for your comments. 

I emailed them at the beginning of the week to go through some options as I didn't want to go in blazing demanding a deposit back I wanted to test the waters and go over some options and gather as much information as I possibly could before going for our deposit. 

The wedding & reception there is only £6448 and we paid £2000 deposit to secure the date and then have paid an additional £2300 on top of the £2000. 

They have said that they can return the £2300 and will do up until 9 months before and then it will decrease. 

I don't mind them keeping around £500 for 'administrate costs' - I just feel to keep the full £2000 when these 'terms and conditions' was never made clear to us upon payment, and even after a year of originally booking no contract has been signed with them to agree to these contractual conditions.  

A contract in England is formed when there is an offer, acceptance and consideration (aka payment). They offered to hire you the venue for £6,448, you accepted and then made consideration by way of the initial £2,000 payment and so a contract was formed. 

Deposits by their very nature are non-refundable by default else they are 99% pointless, the fact you chose not to ask questions about the T&Cs before binding the contract doesn't invalidate the fact a deposit isn't refundable. Next time read the contract before agreeing to it by paying... a signature is totally unnecessary in UK contract law but is just a handy form of proof. 

Don't under estimate the cost of readvertising the property... a quick look on Google Adwords and the estimate is £8.50 per click (that's click, not purchase) for "wedding venue Essex"... I'd be surprised if they get a 1% conversion rate from clicks and but if they did that means there is £850 of advertising fees before you even start getting into costs of showing people round the venue that dont then book, dealing with all the enquiries for dates that aren't available etc etc. £2k total does feel high but not necessarily ridiculously so. 

Is the deposit not just reassurance from the customer that they are serious about the contract and more likely to go ahead.

How is there any reassurance for the company that the customer is serious if the deposit is automatically refundable?

Have you deliberately selectively quoted my post to imply I said they should be refunded in full?

Or are you asking the what is the benefit of the trader taking an advance payment from which they can retain their losses in the event the contract doesn’t go ahead due to fault on the consumer’s part? The answer to which would be obvious.

Either way I don’t understand the point of your post? 

It's nothing to do with the rest of your post, that is why I quoted that one line.  It's one question on that one thing you said.

You bolded in the  post you replied to: "Deposits by their very nature are non-refundable by default else they are 99% pointless". 
You replied to that "Is the deposit not just reassurance from the customer that they are serious about the contract and more likely to go ahead."
So I said "How is there any reassurance for the company that the customer is serious if the deposit is automatically refundable?"

So you think the deposit is  non-refundable to the amount of any losses.  So it's certainly not  "just to show they are serious" rather than being non refundable, is it.

A genuine deposit is a fee for the reservation (of goods, a date, services etc). That is why it can be legitimately kept if the contract doesn't go ahead. But again, a deposit wont normally be more than a small amount of the whole price. If it's a larger amount, this indicates it's not a deposit and is an advance payment for goods/services. Any clause permitting it to be retained in all circumstances is open to being challenged as a disguised penalty - unless it is no more than a reasonable and genuine pre-estimate of loss. 

The courts might accept a higher amount being paid as a deposit for a commercial contract. But not a consumer one. Specifically because if it's set too high and deemed a penalty, then it's an unfair contract term (which means the term is unenforceable). 

The default position in law is that where one party breaches a contract, the other party should be no worse off for the breach. There is no entitlement to betterment, as that goes beyond compensating the wronged party into penalising the the wrongdoer (which is the purpose of criminal law, not civil law). While courts are more reluctant to rule on what's "fair" in a commercial contract (unless there's a imbalance in the bargaining poitions), there is far less protection for commercial entites. They have no consumer rights. Because a business will form contracts on a daily basis as part of it's trade so should be exercising due diligence. While consumers, bless their cotton socks, usually have no clue what it is they've agreed to. As consumers were considered so feckless, they were given extra protection in the form of consumer rights and all sorts of unfair trading laws. Which, not so ironically, is what this board is all about. 

The law rarely if ever echoes people's views on what's "fair". .

But...just as the OP could potentially be due some money back if they rebook, they could potentially be liable for more if they don't manage to rebook and their actual losses are more than the debated deposit/advance payment. But I doubt they would be. Their staff will most likely be on 0 hours (most hospitality staff are) and they won't have the expense of providing the function (food, equipment, lanundry, cleaning etc).  

Ath_Wat

unholyangel said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Ath_Wat said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Sandtree said:

weddingsos2023 said:

Thank you for your comments. 

I emailed them at the beginning of the week to go through some options as I didn't want to go in blazing demanding a deposit back I wanted to test the waters and go over some options and gather as much information as I possibly could before going for our deposit. 

The wedding & reception there is only £6448 and we paid £2000 deposit to secure the date and then have paid an additional £2300 on top of the £2000. 

They have said that they can return the £2300 and will do up until 9 months before and then it will decrease. 

I don't mind them keeping around £500 for 'administrate costs' - I just feel to keep the full £2000 when these 'terms and conditions' was never made clear to us upon payment, and even after a year of originally booking no contract has been signed with them to agree to these contractual conditions.  

A contract in England is formed when there is an offer, acceptance and consideration (aka payment). They offered to hire you the venue for £6,448, you accepted and then made consideration by way of the initial £2,000 payment and so a contract was formed. 

Deposits by their very nature are non-refundable by default else they are 99% pointless, the fact you chose not to ask questions about the T&Cs before binding the contract doesn't invalidate the fact a deposit isn't refundable. Next time read the contract before agreeing to it by paying... a signature is totally unnecessary in UK contract law but is just a handy form of proof. 

Don't under estimate the cost of readvertising the property... a quick look on Google Adwords and the estimate is £8.50 per click (that's click, not purchase) for "wedding venue Essex"... I'd be surprised if they get a 1% conversion rate from clicks and but if they did that means there is £850 of advertising fees before you even start getting into costs of showing people round the venue that dont then book, dealing with all the enquiries for dates that aren't available etc etc. £2k total does feel high but not necessarily ridiculously so. 

Is the deposit not just reassurance from the customer that they are serious about the contract and more likely to go ahead.

How is there any reassurance for the company that the customer is serious if the deposit is automatically refundable?

Have you deliberately selectively quoted my post to imply I said they should be refunded in full?

Or are you asking the what is the benefit of the trader taking an advance payment from which they can retain their losses in the event the contract doesn’t go ahead due to fault on the consumer’s part? The answer to which would be obvious.

Either way I don’t understand the point of your post? 

It's nothing to do with the rest of your post, that is why I quoted that one line.  It's one question on that one thing you said.

You bolded in the  post you replied to: "Deposits by their very nature are non-refundable by default else they are 99% pointless". 
You replied to that "Is the deposit not just reassurance from the customer that they are serious about the contract and more likely to go ahead."
So I said "How is there any reassurance for the company that the customer is serious if the deposit is automatically refundable?"

So you think the deposit is  non-refundable to the amount of any losses.  So it's certainly not  "just to show they are serious" rather than being non refundable, is it.

A genuine deposit is a fee for the reservation (of goods, a date, services etc). That is why it can be legitimately kept if the contract doesn't go ahead. But again, a deposit wont normally be more than a small amount of the whole price. If it's a larger amount, this indicates it's not a deposit and is an advance payment for goods/services. Any clause permitting it to be retained in all circumstances is open to being challenged as a disguised penalty - unless it is no more than a reasonable and genuine pre-estimate of loss. 

The courts might accept a higher amount being paid as a deposit for a commercial contract. But not a consumer one. Specifically because if it's set too high and deemed a penalty, then it's an unfair contract term (which means the term is unenforceable). 

The default position in law is that where one party breaches a contract, the other party should be no worse off for the breach. There is no entitlement to betterment, as that goes beyond compensating the wronged party into penalising the the wrongdoer (which is the purpose of criminal law, not civil law). While courts are more reluctant to rule on what's "fair" in a commercial contract (unless there's a imbalance in the bargaining poitions), there is far less protection for commercial entites. They have no consumer rights. Because a business will form contracts on a daily basis as part of it's trade so should be exercising due diligence. While consumers, bless their cotton socks, usually have no clue what it is they've agreed to. As consumers were considered so feckless, they were given extra protection in the form of consumer rights and all sorts of unfair trading laws. Which, not so ironically, is what this board is all about. 

The law rarely if ever echoes people's views on what's "fair". .

But...just as the OP could potentially be due some money back if they rebook, they could potentially be liable for more if they don't manage to rebook and their actual losses are more than the debated deposit/advance payment. But I doubt they would be. Their staff will most likely be on 0 hours (most hospitality staff are) and they won't have the expense of providing the function (food, equipment, lanundry, cleaning etc).  

I have no idea why you have directed this to me.  I don't disagree with any of it but it is entirely irrelevant to the very narrow point I made, which is  that deposits do not serve to give the seller any sense of certainty if they are automatically refundable, and if this were the case, they would serve little purpose.  They give sellers peace of mind because they are not refundable, at least partially,  in many cases when the seller has incurred losses.

You seem to be addressing a principle of deposits never being refundable, which is an entirely different thing.

unholyangel

Ath_Wat said:

unholyangel said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Ath_Wat said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Sandtree said:

weddingsos2023 said:

Thank you for your comments. 

I emailed them at the beginning of the week to go through some options as I didn't want to go in blazing demanding a deposit back I wanted to test the waters and go over some options and gather as much information as I possibly could before going for our deposit. 

The wedding & reception there is only £6448 and we paid £2000 deposit to secure the date and then have paid an additional £2300 on top of the £2000. 

They have said that they can return the £2300 and will do up until 9 months before and then it will decrease. 

I don't mind them keeping around £500 for 'administrate costs' - I just feel to keep the full £2000 when these 'terms and conditions' was never made clear to us upon payment, and even after a year of originally booking no contract has been signed with them to agree to these contractual conditions.  

A contract in England is formed when there is an offer, acceptance and consideration (aka payment). They offered to hire you the venue for £6,448, you accepted and then made consideration by way of the initial £2,000 payment and so a contract was formed. 

Deposits by their very nature are non-refundable by default else they are 99% pointless, the fact you chose not to ask questions about the T&Cs before binding the contract doesn't invalidate the fact a deposit isn't refundable. Next time read the contract before agreeing to it by paying... a signature is totally unnecessary in UK contract law but is just a handy form of proof. 

Don't under estimate the cost of readvertising the property... a quick look on Google Adwords and the estimate is £8.50 per click (that's click, not purchase) for "wedding venue Essex"... I'd be surprised if they get a 1% conversion rate from clicks and but if they did that means there is £850 of advertising fees before you even start getting into costs of showing people round the venue that dont then book, dealing with all the enquiries for dates that aren't available etc etc. £2k total does feel high but not necessarily ridiculously so. 

Is the deposit not just reassurance from the customer that they are serious about the contract and more likely to go ahead.

How is there any reassurance for the company that the customer is serious if the deposit is automatically refundable?

Have you deliberately selectively quoted my post to imply I said they should be refunded in full?

Or are you asking the what is the benefit of the trader taking an advance payment from which they can retain their losses in the event the contract doesn’t go ahead due to fault on the consumer’s part? The answer to which would be obvious.

Either way I don’t understand the point of your post? 

It's nothing to do with the rest of your post, that is why I quoted that one line.  It's one question on that one thing you said.

You bolded in the  post you replied to: "Deposits by their very nature are non-refundable by default else they are 99% pointless". 
You replied to that "Is the deposit not just reassurance from the customer that they are serious about the contract and more likely to go ahead."
So I said "How is there any reassurance for the company that the customer is serious if the deposit is automatically refundable?"

So you think the deposit is  non-refundable to the amount of any losses.  So it's certainly not  "just to show they are serious" rather than being non refundable, is it.

A genuine deposit is a fee for the reservation (of goods, a date, services etc). That is why it can be legitimately kept if the contract doesn't go ahead. But again, a deposit wont normally be more than a small amount of the whole price. If it's a larger amount, this indicates it's not a deposit and is an advance payment for goods/services. Any clause permitting it to be retained in all circumstances is open to being challenged as a disguised penalty - unless it is no more than a reasonable and genuine pre-estimate of loss. 

The courts might accept a higher amount being paid as a deposit for a commercial contract. But not a consumer one. Specifically because if it's set too high and deemed a penalty, then it's an unfair contract term (which means the term is unenforceable). 

The default position in law is that where one party breaches a contract, the other party should be no worse off for the breach. There is no entitlement to betterment, as that goes beyond compensating the wronged party into penalising the the wrongdoer (which is the purpose of criminal law, not civil law). While courts are more reluctant to rule on what's "fair" in a commercial contract (unless there's a imbalance in the bargaining poitions), there is far less protection for commercial entites. They have no consumer rights. Because a business will form contracts on a daily basis as part of it's trade so should be exercising due diligence. While consumers, bless their cotton socks, usually have no clue what it is they've agreed to. As consumers were considered so feckless, they were given extra protection in the form of consumer rights and all sorts of unfair trading laws. Which, not so ironically, is what this board is all about. 

The law rarely if ever echoes people's views on what's "fair". .

But...just as the OP could potentially be due some money back if they rebook, they could potentially be liable for more if they don't manage to rebook and their actual losses are more than the debated deposit/advance payment. But I doubt they would be. Their staff will most likely be on 0 hours (most hospitality staff are) and they won't have the expense of providing the function (food, equipment, lanundry, cleaning etc).  

I have no idea why you have directed this to me.  I don't disagree with any of it but it is entirely irrelevant to the very narrow point I made, which is  that deposits do not serve to give the seller any sense of certainty if they are automatically refundable, and if this were the case, they would serve little purpose.  They give sellers peace of mind because they are not refundable, at least partially,  in many cases when the seller has incurred losses.

You seem to be addressing a principle of deposits never being refundable, which is an entirely different thing.

What you seem to be missing is that a deposit is not designed to cover damages caused by a breach of contract. A deposit (legally, as opposed to what the layperson might call a deposit) is a fee for the reservation. Which is precisely why it can be kept in full. Because its payment for the benefit of the reservation and whether the contract goes ahead or not, they received that benefit of the reservation.

You also seem to be missing the fact that consumer rights are indeed biased in favour of the consumer, to the detriment of the trader. Its not necessarily about what's fair on the trader. 

Ath_Wat

unholyangel said:

Ath_Wat said:

unholyangel said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Ath_Wat said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Sandtree said:

weddingsos2023 said:

Thank you for your comments. 

I emailed them at the beginning of the week to go through some options as I didn't want to go in blazing demanding a deposit back I wanted to test the waters and go over some options and gather as much information as I possibly could before going for our deposit. 

The wedding & reception there is only £6448 and we paid £2000 deposit to secure the date and then have paid an additional £2300 on top of the £2000. 

They have said that they can return the £2300 and will do up until 9 months before and then it will decrease. 

I don't mind them keeping around £500 for 'administrate costs' - I just feel to keep the full £2000 when these 'terms and conditions' was never made clear to us upon payment, and even after a year of originally booking no contract has been signed with them to agree to these contractual conditions.  

A contract in England is formed when there is an offer, acceptance and consideration (aka payment). They offered to hire you the venue for £6,448, you accepted and then made consideration by way of the initial £2,000 payment and so a contract was formed. 

Deposits by their very nature are non-refundable by default else they are 99% pointless, the fact you chose not to ask questions about the T&Cs before binding the contract doesn't invalidate the fact a deposit isn't refundable. Next time read the contract before agreeing to it by paying... a signature is totally unnecessary in UK contract law but is just a handy form of proof. 

Don't under estimate the cost of readvertising the property... a quick look on Google Adwords and the estimate is £8.50 per click (that's click, not purchase) for "wedding venue Essex"... I'd be surprised if they get a 1% conversion rate from clicks and but if they did that means there is £850 of advertising fees before you even start getting into costs of showing people round the venue that dont then book, dealing with all the enquiries for dates that aren't available etc etc. £2k total does feel high but not necessarily ridiculously so. 

Is the deposit not just reassurance from the customer that they are serious about the contract and more likely to go ahead.

How is there any reassurance for the company that the customer is serious if the deposit is automatically refundable?

Have you deliberately selectively quoted my post to imply I said they should be refunded in full?

Or are you asking the what is the benefit of the trader taking an advance payment from which they can retain their losses in the event the contract doesn’t go ahead due to fault on the consumer’s part? The answer to which would be obvious.

Either way I don’t understand the point of your post? 

It's nothing to do with the rest of your post, that is why I quoted that one line.  It's one question on that one thing you said.

You bolded in the  post you replied to: "Deposits by their very nature are non-refundable by default else they are 99% pointless". 
You replied to that "Is the deposit not just reassurance from the customer that they are serious about the contract and more likely to go ahead."
So I said "How is there any reassurance for the company that the customer is serious if the deposit is automatically refundable?"

So you think the deposit is  non-refundable to the amount of any losses.  So it's certainly not  "just to show they are serious" rather than being non refundable, is it.

A genuine deposit is a fee for the reservation (of goods, a date, services etc). That is why it can be legitimately kept if the contract doesn't go ahead. But again, a deposit wont normally be more than a small amount of the whole price. If it's a larger amount, this indicates it's not a deposit and is an advance payment for goods/services. Any clause permitting it to be retained in all circumstances is open to being challenged as a disguised penalty - unless it is no more than a reasonable and genuine pre-estimate of loss. 

The courts might accept a higher amount being paid as a deposit for a commercial contract. But not a consumer one. Specifically because if it's set too high and deemed a penalty, then it's an unfair contract term (which means the term is unenforceable). 

The default position in law is that where one party breaches a contract, the other party should be no worse off for the breach. There is no entitlement to betterment, as that goes beyond compensating the wronged party into penalising the the wrongdoer (which is the purpose of criminal law, not civil law). While courts are more reluctant to rule on what's "fair" in a commercial contract (unless there's a imbalance in the bargaining poitions), there is far less protection for commercial entites. They have no consumer rights. Because a business will form contracts on a daily basis as part of it's trade so should be exercising due diligence. While consumers, bless their cotton socks, usually have no clue what it is they've agreed to. As consumers were considered so feckless, they were given extra protection in the form of consumer rights and all sorts of unfair trading laws. Which, not so ironically, is what this board is all about. 

The law rarely if ever echoes people's views on what's "fair". .

But...just as the OP could potentially be due some money back if they rebook, they could potentially be liable for more if they don't manage to rebook and their actual losses are more than the debated deposit/advance payment. But I doubt they would be. Their staff will most likely be on 0 hours (most hospitality staff are) and they won't have the expense of providing the function (food, equipment, lanundry, cleaning etc).  

I have no idea why you have directed this to me.  I don't disagree with any of it but it is entirely irrelevant to the very narrow point I made, which is  that deposits do not serve to give the seller any sense of certainty if they are automatically refundable, and if this were the case, they would serve little purpose.  They give sellers peace of mind because they are not refundable, at least partially,  in many cases when the seller has incurred losses.

You seem to be addressing a principle of deposits never being refundable, which is an entirely different thing.

What you seem to be missing is that a deposit is not designed to cover damages caused by a breach of contract. A deposit (legally, as opposed to what the layperson might call a deposit) is a fee for the reservation. Which is precisely why it can be kept in full. Because its payment for the benefit of the reservation and whether the contract goes ahead or not, they received that benefit of the reservation.

You also seem to be missing the fact that consumer rights are indeed biased in favour of the consumer, to the detriment of the trader. Its not necessarily about what's fair on the trader. 

I am not missing anything of the sort.  It is entirely irrelevant to what I was saying.  

I was disputing the single specific claim that deposits can be refundable because they are "just reassurance from the customer that they are serious about the contract and more likely to go ahead." to which I said that if they were automatically refundable, they would give no such reassurance, therefore it did not seem logical to me to suggest that deposits are  "just reassurance from the customer that they are serious about the contract and more likely to go ahead." and  always refundable.

That's it.

I simply don't understand why you believe what you said above is relevant to that.  I said nothing about whether they they are or are not refundable or whether anything is fair.  Perhaps if you reply again you can outline what you think I am saying.  You are arguing that deposits are "a fee for reservations", fine, a fee for reservations is not "reassurance from the customer that they are serious about the contract and more likely to go ahead", is it.

(I am aware that the person I originally directed this has clarified that he believes this reassurance is predicated on the fact that they are retainable in case of losses, which is why they give reassurance.  That does make logical sense, but was not what they originally implied.  However that remains his definition of a deposit, not mine.  I have never offered a definition of a deposit so if you think his is actually not really a deposit, tell it to him.)

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

It's a lesson in language (at least for myself). 

Unholyangel is correct that a deposit can be deemed non-refundable and that's because it's a tiny amount.

The OP hasn't paid a deposit, they've made a prepayment which the trader can't claim is non-refundable unless they explain it's a genuine pre-estimation of loss and the amount is such. 

I don't think a wedding venue priced at 6 grand is spending 2 grand on sourcing each customer plus a bit of admin, they should have solid word of mouth, a strong social media presence and pick up bookings on wedding days themselves as others get caught up in the moment.  

Getting caught up in the moment goes back to the point, when the customer is asked to put hand in pocket that is their opportunely to consider whether they really want the decision, those who do pay at this point are far more likely to to be "serious customers". 

Lastly to add I didn't say the prepayment is refundable because it is just reassurance, in terms of refundable I asked if the legal position was entitlement to losses only