VCS CCBC Claim Form - Not the driver - 6 years ago

Castle

HNZS said:

I still have the original Notice to Keeper / Driver.

Date of issue 19/05/2016 (You can't read this date in mm/dd/yyyy - so there is no way that they can refer to an event that hasn't yet occurred!)
Contravention Date: 07/04/2016
With the same PCN ref No.

Was there ever a NTD issued; (a "Windscreen ticket")?

HNZS

Snakes_Belly said:

"The thing about this is that it really makes my blood boil - I've stood firm on the basis that I knew that I'd not done anything wrong. Anyone else barraged with the same level of 'threats' may have folded and parted with their money (even though they shouldn't!). Surely there has to be a way to stop this kind of activity? Is Gross incompetence a crime?"

There has been an issue with several car parks in a town where I live and although a number of claims are being challenged many have just paid up. I feel that the people that have challenged the claims are just the tip of the iceberg. 

Many people have a fear of court. When I was going to court a friend asked me if I thought I would 'get off '. I replied I am not the bl--dy accused.     

Sorry I didnt mean gross incompetence of those who had paid, but the gross incompetence of these companies who are scaring people.

HNZS

Castle said:

HNZS said:

I still have the original Notice to Keeper / Driver.

Date of issue 19/05/2016 (You can't read this date in mm/dd/yyyy - so there is no way that they can refer to an event that hasn't yet occurred!)
Contravention Date: 07/04/2016
With the same PCN ref No.

Was there ever a NTD issued; (a "Windscreen ticket")?

From what I recall - it was disposed of by the garage - they've had issues with this particular parking company and were having many disputes with them - I think their words were "its a scam.... don't worry about it!" and the guy ripped it off the window and threw it in the bin!
So I never actually 'had' the window ticket!
Maybe in hindsight I should have taken it out of the bin! But as he said it was a scam, I didn't think anything of it at the time!

Snakes_Belly

"Sorry I didnt mean gross incompetence of those who had paid, but the gross incompetence of these companies who are scaring people."

I did realise what you meant.   There are a lot of people who just pay up especially anyone contemplating a property purchase.  It is though perpetuating the scam.  

KeithP

HNZS said:

I've posted on this group before for this exact problem (I thought it was closed - I was wrong!)

A link to your earlier thread...
forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6092305/not-the-driver-dbc-legal-parking-charge-notice-letter-of-claim

HNZS said:

And finally 1 July 2022 I've finally got the CCBC claim form.

What is the Issue Date on your County Court Claim Form?

HNZS

Date of issue on the County Court Form: 01 July 2022

KeithP

HNZS said:

Date of issue on the County Court Form: 01 July 2022

With a Claim Issue Date of 1st July, you have until Wednesday 20th July to file an Acknowledgment of Service. Do not file an Acknowledgment of Service before 6th July, but otherwise there is nothing to be gained by delaying it. 

To file an Acknowledgment of Service, follow the guidance in the Dropbox file linked from the second post in the NEWBIES thread.

Having filed an Acknowledgment of Service in a timely manner, you have until 4pm on Wednesday 3rd August 2022 to file your Defence.

That's over four weeks away. Plenty of time to produce a Defence, but please don't leave it to the last minute.

To create a Defence, and then file a Defence by email, look again at the second post on the NEWBIES thread - immediately following where you found the Acknowledgment of Service instructions.

Don't miss the deadline for filing an Acknowledgment of Service, nor that for filing a Defence.

Do not try and file a Defence via the MoneyClaimOnline website. Once an Acknowledgment of Service has been filed, the MCOL website should be treated as 'read only'.

HNZS

KeithP said:

HNZS said:

Date of issue on the County Court Form: 01 July 2022

With a Claim Issue Date of 1st July, you have until Wednesday 20th July to file an Acknowledgment of Service. Do not file an Acknowledgment of Service before 6th July, but otherwise there is nothing to be gained by delaying it. 

To file an Acknowledgment of Service, follow the guidance in the Dropbox file linked from the second post in the NEWBIES thread.

Having filed an Acknowledgment of Service in a timely manner, you have until 4pm on Wednesday 3rd August 2022 to file your Defence.

That's over four weeks away. Plenty of time to produce a Defence, but please don't leave it to the last minute.

To create a Defence, and then file a Defence by email, look again at the second post on the NEWBIES thread - immediately following where you found the Acknowledgment of Service instructions.

Don't miss the deadline for filing an Acknowledgment of Service, nor that for filing a Defence.

Do not try and file a Defence via the MoneyClaimOnline website. Once an Acknowledgment of Service has been filed, the MCOL website should be treated as 'read only'.

Thanks KeithP

Reading the prepared defence statement, only notes on 

(d) if you are defending as keeper, not driver, include a copy of Schedule 4 of the POFA - there is a link in post #1 above. Plus a copy of Henry Greenslade's wording from the POPLA Annual Report 2015 'Understanding Keeper Liability'.

Seems to apply here - and the only real defence point is "However keeper information is obtained, there is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver." 

And I would suggest that as I have already provided them with a response to their request for the driver information in the form of a letter (stamped by the service garage) that this should suffice?

I guess my worry is that while the standard template response may work for most cases - I don't understand how stating the signage is too small / unclear or that process in obtaining keeper details wasn't followed apply when 
a) I wasn't there to be able to see any signage
b) the date of the NTK is within (what I believe to be) the correct timescales.

And trumping it all is the details on the PoC are incorrect (they've put the PCN details as 04/07/2016 instead of 07/04/2016).

So should a defence target:
a) Incorrect PoC
b) Not Keeper Liability
c) or Both

This is defo a win-able case, I worry I might balls it up somehow by not 'knowing' how these things work.

Fruitcake

You need to write to the claimant and their solicitors, including the proof that the alleged event was in April 2016 by enclosing a copy of the NTK showing that date, and that the PCN/NTK number matches that on the CCBC claim form.

You then tell them to FRO as the Limitations Act prevents them from starting a court claim more than six years after the date of the alleged event.

You should repeat this each and every time you contact them.

Tell them to cease and desist, and instruct them all to erase your data.

As for your defence, you must highlight the fact that this case is statute barred by the Limitations Act, thus the claim is vexatious. 

Then you add no keeper liability because the driver's details were provided to, and confirmed as received by the claimant on X date, ref letter/email ref no Y, date Z.

Have you complained to the landowner yet, and your MP?

HNZS

Fruitcake said:

You need to write to the claimant and their solicitors, including the proof that the alleged event was in April 2016 by enclosing a copy of the NTK showing that date, and that the PCN/NTK number matches that on the CCBC claim form.

You then tell them to FRO as the Limitations Act prevents them from starting a court claim more than six years after the date of the alleged event.

You should repeat this each and every time you contact them.

Tell them to cease and desist, and instruct them all to erase your data.

As for your defence, you must highlight the fact that this case is statute barred by the Limitations Act, thus the claim is vexatious. 

Have you complained to the landowner yet, and your MP?

Thanks for the advice - 

No complaints to landowner or MP - I don't even know the exact place where the ticket would have happened (so wouldn't know where to start to find the landowner) as I picked up the car from the garage - so it would have happened at some-point in time / some-where when the car was with them. I honestly had no forethought that it would get this far and that at some stage it would surely become reasonably clear that as keeper I was not driver and therefore could surely not enter into any kind of contract. But we live and learn!

.. ... It took me a while to get the FRO acronym - Brilliant

re. statute barred - I read somewhere that this only applies if there has been no requests for payment for 6 years. But in this instance there has been persistent /pestering requests.
Also statute barred prevents this going via the courts, but that the debt is still there - it just cannot be pursued via courts.
And that they could use other methods (private bailiffs (but not court appointed))
Any truth in these?