Sold a caravan - turned out not to be the one on the paperwork, Finance Company won't refund

Lighthouses7

forgotmyname said:

Sold as better condition?   The caravan was in the condition your friend viewed it and accepted it back in 2018. The
fact it may have had repairs is neither here or there. They accepted its condition in 2018 and paid for it.

How is it unroadworthy?  Assume your friend took it on the road at some point? Vehicle condition is 100% down to the
person taking it onto the highway.  Ask any van driver that works for a company that have little care for their vehicle condition
or cheap car hire places that rent out vehicles with major defects.

Went to hire a 7.5ton lorry to help someone move and both inner rear tyres were flat. Not taking that on an 700/800 mile round trip..
But someone inexperienced may not have noticed the tyres but still liable legally.

Hello forgtotmyname, thanks again for your help. I respectfully disagree with your first assertion - it was described as a better quality and given a higher value than it was worth. The fact the description and value didn't correspond to that as described wouldn't have been apparent unless the purchaser knew what they were looking for and imbued with a level of knowledge above that of the standard, reasonable purchaser.

You're right to pull me up on 'unroadworthy', that was my description, not hers. I should maybe have said 'potentially unsafe' because there is no record of the vehicle ever being certified as safe for use AFAIK.

Thanks again all.

forgotmyname

So all comments about it being unroadworthy should ne discarded?  Nothing to show it as being unroadworthy.  Maybe it was an insurance
writeoff but that could have been a scratch or a damaged panel or even had internal items stolen where the insurance thought sourcing parts
would be economical?

Nothing in that makes it unroadworthy and making these claims would have me discarding any claim from the start.

How is it in a worse condition than when they viewed it?   What is actually wrong with it?   It was worth what your friend paid for it as with
everything. It's only worth what someone is willing to pay. Been caravanning a long time and have seen many overpriced vans for sale
some with serious issues which would make the van almost worthless (to me) but someone with time and skills may think its worth more.

To me it looks a simple case where the only issue is the chassis number not matching the information given to the
finance company. Everything else mentioned just seems to be clouding that fact.

Not unknown for dealers to use different details on the loan form, naughty yes but it happened.

Nebulous2

Lighthouses7 said:

Nebulous2 said:

As said above, how did the problem come to light? 

If the number on all the windows does not match the paperwork, it might be reasonable to expect they had checked that themselves. 

The problem the finance company have is they have no idea if the caravan being complained about is the one your friend was sold. 

What kind of price are we talking about? How long and how much is outstanding?

It might be worth chasing the retailer a bit harder.  Particularly if they are a big company selling new vans rather than a small operator.  

Hello Nebulous. It came to light when they tried to seel it - the company which was the putative purchaser must have checked the serial number on the paperwork against the one on the actual caravan. You do identify the problem the finance company ID'd - they don't know that the caravan in poessession is the one as sold, for which they provided finance. I'm going from memory but think there's abouyt £1300 left of a £6000 loan.

It sounds like a real mess to me. Caravans gained hugely in price during lockdown. They may have slipped back a bit now, but a private sale could well still be feasible. 

Chasing the seller is a possibility, taking the seller or finance company or both to court - however proving anything might be difficult. I'd say this could absorb masses of time and effort for very little gain..... 

Lighthouses7

forgotmyname said:

So all comments about it being unroadworthy should ne discarded?  Nothing to show it as being unroadworthy.  Maybe it was an insurance
writeoff but that could have been a scratch or a damaged panel or even had internal items stolen where the insurance thought sourcing parts
would be economical?

Nothing in that makes it unroadworthy and making these claims would have me discarding any claim from the start.

How is it in a worse condition than when they viewed it?   What is actually wrong with it?   It was worth what your friend paid for it as with
everything. It's only worth what someone is willing to pay. Been caravanning a long time and have seen many overpriced vans for sale
some with serious issues which would make the van almost worthless (to me) but someone with time and skills may think its worth more.

To me it looks a simple case where the only issue is the chassis number not matching the information given to the
finance company. Everything else mentioned just seems to be clouding that fact.

Not unknown for dealers to use different details on the loan form, naughty yes but it happened.

Thanks for the reply, forgtomyname.

I think you are reading too much into my choice of the word 'unroadworthy'. Bear in mind I am trying to piece details together 2nd hand over a saga that has been relayed to me piecemeal over the past few months. My friend may have used that word to me in the past, I really can't recall. Maybe it is unroadworthy even though it's been on the road, someone who knows what they are looking for ay spot something that aypeople like my friend and her husband cannot. I don't think anything turns on my use of that word, whether it's accurate or not.

A fundamental term of the contract of sale has been breached by a representation that it was a Cat B and it is a Cat C. Whether it is roadworthy or not is an otiose consideration in relation to that. They were sold a pup.

So it just that numbers didn't match. The item conveyed was of an inferior quality to that contracted for. Cat Cs are uninsurable and (I think) unsellable. I know nothing about them, you may know what that means more than me.

Also, she told me that CRIS said it had been in an accident (hence why it is a Cat C).

Lighthouses7

Nebulous2 said:

Lighthouses7 said:

Nebulous2 said:

As said above, how did the problem come to light? 

If the number on all the windows does not match the paperwork, it might be reasonable to expect they had checked that themselves. 

The problem the finance company have is they have no idea if the caravan being complained about is the one your friend was sold. 

What kind of price are we talking about? How long and how much is outstanding?

It might be worth chasing the retailer a bit harder.  Particularly if they are a big company selling new vans rather than a small operator.  

Hello Nebulous. It came to light when they tried to seel it - the company which was the putative purchaser must have checked the serial number on the paperwork against the one on the actual caravan. You do identify the problem the finance company ID'd - they don't know that the caravan in poessession is the one as sold, for which they provided finance. I'm going from memory but think there's abouyt £1300 left of a £6000 loan.

It sounds like a real mess to me. Caravans gained hugely in price during lockdown. They may have slipped back a bit now, but a private sale could well still be feasible. 

Chasing the seller is a possibility, taking the seller or finance company or both to court - however proving anything might be difficult. I'd say this could absorb masses of time and effort for very little gain..... 

Thanks Nebulous2, it is a mess and I fear that they, as an innocent party, are going to be £6k lighter for a vehicle they were conned over buying and which they can't sell. They are lovely people and really do not deserve it, it makes me angry, which is why I am trying to do what I can to help them.

forgotmyname

They can sell it, sold my van a while back and the buyer didnt care about the Cris registration paperwork, they said they
were not going to pay to swap it over.

Sister bought a van some years back and that didnt have any paperwork  even though it was purchased from a dealer.
Registration is optional.

[Deleted User]

Lighthouses7 said:

Nebulous2 said:

Lighthouses7 said:

Nebulous2 said:

As said above, how did the problem come to light? 

If the number on all the windows does not match the paperwork, it might be reasonable to expect they had checked that themselves. 

The problem the finance company have is they have no idea if the caravan being complained about is the one your friend was sold. 

What kind of price are we talking about? How long and how much is outstanding?

It might be worth chasing the retailer a bit harder.  Particularly if they are a big company selling new vans rather than a small operator.  

Hello Nebulous. It came to light when they tried to seel it - the company which was the putative purchaser must have checked the serial number on the paperwork against the one on the actual caravan. You do identify the problem the finance company ID'd - they don't know that the caravan in poessession is the one as sold, for which they provided finance. I'm going from memory but think there's abouyt £1300 left of a £6000 loan.

It sounds like a real mess to me. Caravans gained hugely in price during lockdown. They may have slipped back a bit now, but a private sale could well still be feasible. 

Chasing the seller is a possibility, taking the seller or finance company or both to court - however proving anything might be difficult. I'd say this could absorb masses of time and effort for very little gain..... 

 it is a mess and I fear that they, as an innocent party, are going to be £6k lighter for a vehicle they were conned over buying and which they can't sell. 

Is their maths correct? If they paid 6k for it four years ago, would they really expect to sell if for the same now? I don't know anything about caravans, but I'd expect some depreciation, even given the rise on prices of second hand vehicles.

It would also mean that they cannot sell it now at any price - which again seems unlikely.

And don't forget, they've also had 4 years of ownership for that 6k.

Lighthouses7

forgotmyname said:

They can sell it, sold my van a while back and the buyer didnt care about the Cris registration paperwork, they said they
were not going to pay to swap it over.

Sister bought a van some years back and that didnt have any paperwork  even though it was purchased from a dealer.
Registration is optional.

Thanks forgotmyname. Where would they stand legally if the 2009 owner had the money to get it written-off but got it repaired and sold it? Would that be fraud and mean that subsequent buyers of the van don't really legally own it?

Lighthouses7

Deleted_User said:

Lighthouses7 said:

Nebulous2 said:

Lighthouses7 said:

Nebulous2 said:

As said above, how did the problem come to light? 

If the number on all the windows does not match the paperwork, it might be reasonable to expect they had checked that themselves. 

The problem the finance company have is they have no idea if the caravan being complained about is the one your friend was sold. 

What kind of price are we talking about? How long and how much is outstanding?

It might be worth chasing the retailer a bit harder.  Particularly if they are a big company selling new vans rather than a small operator.  

Hello Nebulous. It came to light when they tried to seel it - the company which was the putative purchaser must have checked the serial number on the paperwork against the one on the actual caravan. You do identify the problem the finance company ID'd - they don't know that the caravan in poessession is the one as sold, for which they provided finance. I'm going from memory but think there's abouyt £1300 left of a £6000 loan.

It sounds like a real mess to me. Caravans gained hugely in price during lockdown. They may have slipped back a bit now, but a private sale could well still be feasible. 

Chasing the seller is a possibility, taking the seller or finance company or both to court - however proving anything might be difficult. I'd say this could absorb masses of time and effort for very little gain..... 

 it is a mess and I fear that they, as an innocent party, are going to be £6k lighter for a vehicle they were conned over buying and which they can't sell. 

Is their maths correct? If they paid 6k for it four years ago, would they really expect to sell if for the same now? I don't know anything about caravans, but I'd expect some depreciation, even given the rise on prices of second hand vehicles.

It would also mean that they cannot sell it now at any price - which again seems unlikely.

And don't forget, they've also had 4 years of ownership for that 6k.

Oh no, they wouldn't hope to get anywhere near £6k resale value. Yep, they have had the 4 years' use but at a price that was too high on the basis of a misrepresentation, and the finance company want the balance paying.

DE_612183

Isn't this the wrong way round?

I thought Cat B was "spares only" and Cat C was "damaged repairable"