Sold a caravan - turned out not to be the one on the paperwork, Finance Company won't refund

forgotmyname

The fact it may have been repaired is irrelevant.  Plenty out there that have had repairs, even major panel replacements

under warranty.

Had the money to get it written off? What does that mean?   Its been repaired so what?  Did the dealer specifically say its

never been repaired not even workshop warranty repair which are common?

Nebulous2

Lighthouses7 said:

Nebulous2 said:

Lighthouses7 said:

Nebulous2 said:

As said above, how did the problem come to light? 

If the number on all the windows does not match the paperwork, it might be reasonable to expect they had checked that themselves. 

The problem the finance company have is they have no idea if the caravan being complained about is the one your friend was sold. 

What kind of price are we talking about? How long and how much is outstanding?

It might be worth chasing the retailer a bit harder.  Particularly if they are a big company selling new vans rather than a small operator.  

Hello Nebulous. It came to light when they tried to seel it - the company which was the putative purchaser must have checked the serial number on the paperwork against the one on the actual caravan. You do identify the problem the finance company ID'd - they don't know that the caravan in poessession is the one as sold, for which they provided finance. I'm going from memory but think there's abouyt £1300 left of a £6000 loan.

It sounds like a real mess to me. Caravans gained hugely in price during lockdown. They may have slipped back a bit now, but a private sale could well still be feasible. 

Chasing the seller is a possibility, taking the seller or finance company or both to court - however proving anything might be difficult. I'd say this could absorb masses of time and effort for very little gain..... 

Thanks Nebulous2, it is a mess and I fear that they, as an innocent party, are going to be £6k lighter for a vehicle they were conned over buying and which they can't sell. They are lovely people and really do not deserve it, it makes me angry, which is why I am trying to do what I can to help them.

If they bought it for £6k, they aren't going to be £6k lighter. As I said, you're shaping up for a battle which may not be winnable. 

Caravans have seasonal pricing. They drop in the autumn because people don't want to look after and store them over the winter. Then they rise in the spring as people plan for the new season. We're in a between time zone at the moment, where most people are organised for this year but there is still some usage to be had before they become a liability over the winter. Delaying now will quite literally reduce saleability. My view is they should cut their losses, market it now and see what happens. 

CRIS becomes less valuable the older the caravan gets. My last caravan was a 1991 one, which we bought for £600, repaired some leaks, ran for 3 years and thousands of miles, including trips to France / Spain, and sold for what we paid for it. Neither us nor the people we sold it to even asked about CRIS. 

My current caravan was more expensive than your friend's one, but we had the luck to buy in October 2019 just before Covid. It is still worth about £2k more than we paid for it. It is CRIS registered and transferred to us. We didn't bother transferring or registering the tracker. 

It will be very difficult to work out what if any loss your friends have had. A combination of paying a dealer premium, being 4 years older, associated wear and tear, how desirable the model is (two berths are cheaper and more difficult to sell) whether they have serviced it in 4 years, will all impact the price. 

As a very rough yardstick I'd say a caravan bought for £6k four years earlier would be worth £3k now. If there are real concerns about its provenance that might reduce to £2.5k. Almost anything modern, not damp, with working electrics, reasonable trim level and good upholstery will have a floor at £2000. 

A dealer will pay more than a private sale - but they will only do that if you buy a newer, more expensive one. I meet people on sites who tell me their dealer is great, their caravan was only worth £12k but the dealer gave them £15k. I think- that's because you paid £30k for a new one! 

Lighthouses7

forgotmyname said:

The fact it may have been repaired is irrelevant.  Plenty out there that have had repairs, even major panel replacements

under warranty.

Had the money to get it written off? What does that mean?   Its been repaired so what?  Did the dealer specifically say its

never been repaired not even workshop warranty repair which are common?

The fact it has been repaired may be legally penumbral but that isn't my concern, As I have explained several times, my query is whether the 2009 owner taking the insurance money for the caravan to be written-off and then it being repaired and *sold* amounts to fraud on their part, such that any subsequent ownership is vitiated by those actions.

You seem to be under a mispapprehension. You seem to think that the fact that they bought the physical caravan that was presented to them means there are no grounds on which to challenge the sale.

That is not the case.

The representation that it was of a better quality than it actually was - which meant it was sold at a higher value than it was worth - is a misrepresentation forming part of the contract as per s1(a) and (b) of the Misrepresentation Act (1967). It also gives rise to various claims under the consolidated Consumer Rights Act (2015).

Hence my query being about how is best to pursue this.

[Deleted User]

Lighthouses7 said:

 As I have explained several times, my query is whether the 2009 owner taking the insurance money for the caravan to be written-off and then it being repaired and *sold* amounts to fraud on their part, such that any subsequent ownership is vitiated by those actions.

No - it's not fraud to repair a vehicle.

DE_612183

I think here the OP @Lighthouses7 is not getting the answer they want.

I would therefore suggest that if the advice from this board is not what you want to hear, then perhaps a no win no fee solicitors might be worth a punt, or if you have free legal advice as part of any insurance policy perhaps try and use that.

If the caravan is insured, perhaps contact that company and see what their view of the situation is.

Lighthouses7

Deleted_User said:

Lighthouses7 said:

 As I have explained several times, my query is whether the 2009 owner taking the insurance money for the caravan to be written-off and then it being repaired and *sold* amounts to fraud on their part, such that any subsequent ownership is vitiated by those actions.

No - it's not fraud to repair a vehicle.

That's a reductio ad absurdum. Is it fraud to take write-off money but then sell the item on as the 2009 owner did, is the query I have in relation to repair.

[Deleted User]

No. It's not fraud to repair a written off vehicle and sell it.

Farmers-wife_2

Here is a government guide to buying repaired 'written-off' vehicles - It may be some help, especially as it seems to answer your question of "Is it fraud to take write-off money but then sell the item on?" 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/buying-repaired-written-off-vehicles-a-consumer-guide 

born_again

Lighthouses7 said:

forgotmyname said:

They can sell it, sold my van a while back and the buyer didnt care about the Cris registration paperwork, they said they
were not going to pay to swap it over.

Sister bought a van some years back and that didnt have any paperwork  even though it was purchased from a dealer.
Registration is optional.

Thanks forgotmyname. Where would they stand legally if the 2009 owner had the money to get it written-off but got it repaired and sold it? Would that be fraud and mean that subsequent buyers of the van don't really legally own it?

Well if the ins co write it off. There are 2 options. One owner takes the full amount offered & the van is taken by the ins co. Two owner takes a cut in the payout (salvage value) & keeps the van.
This happens all the time when Ins co's write vehicles off. As Ins co only look at the cost to repair against the value of the vehicle. To the owner it maybe worth a lot more & they can live with bumps & scrapes.
As someone else pointed out the cost to repair panels or internal items. May push the cost over the value of the van to the ins co. But someone doing the work themselves can do it a lot cheaper.

So no it is not fraud. As the owner still owned it, and has then sold it on. Or the ins co sold it to a 3rd party who have restored it. It is perfectable legal & the Ins co's are more than happy to sell write off on. So long as it fits in one of the lower categories.