Sold a caravan - turned out not to be the one on the paperwork, Finance Company won't refund

Lighthouses7

Hello everyone, I shall try to cut a long story short. I am trying to help out my friend with the following situation and have hit a brick wall.

She and her husband bought a caravan with the help of finance from a bank's motor finance company back in May 2018, from a caravan retailer.

In March this year they wanted rid and tried to sell it to a well-known company which purchases vehicles. This highlighted a problem: the physical caravan they bought has a different serial number to the one described in the paperwork and as registered at the Caravan Registration & Information System. It appears, going by research into the serial number of the physical caravan which was actually purchased, that it was involved in an accident in 2009 and may not be road-safe.
 cited various sections of the Sale of Goods

The caravan retailer is not responding to messages in relation to this matter so I told my mate to try the finance company. I told her to cite the Sale of Goods Act provisions to say that the contract of sale has terms that the caravan retailer had the legal right to sell the item, that the item sold matched the description as per the serial number in the paperwork and that the item was of satisfactory quality.

I then told her to try invoking Section 75 of the Consumer Credict Act (1974) which I hoped also made the finance company liable for the above breaches (with them having a right of recovery against the caravan seller).

The finance company reply said:

- they can not verify that the caravan in my mate's possession is the same one as sold in 2018

- no refund is due because their policy is to retain payment for each month they had actual use of the caravan

- under the Consumer Rights Act (sic. - she never quoted this, she quoted the Consumer Credit Act) a complaint should be made within the first 6 months of ownership, and for complaints outside this time the onus is on her to provide evidence that there were 'concerns' at the time of sale

They say that this is their 'final correspondence' on the matter.

So, as a result, my mate is lumbered with a caravan that they can't sell because they don't know its legal status and safety for use, for which the finance company is demanding repayments for. It's making hre husband ill with worry.

Where can I advise her to go from here?

MEM62

The damage to the caravan occurred in 2009 an you have owned it for circa four years.  If there were any residual problems from the accident it is highly likely that they would have come to light by now.  I am not familiar with caravans but is there an independent body that will perform an inspection and establish the status of that particular caravan?  If so, that may be your way forward.  Challenging the seller and finance company after all this time is likely to be a dead end.      

forgotmyname

Do the numbers on the registration document match those on the windows?

Accident in 2009 was this in the caravan they have posession of or the caravan chassis number on the invoice?

Problem with citing S75 terms and sale of goods etc. is actually having the correct information for such a claim.

Think of it as a car you buy a 4 door eurobox MK92 chassis number 123456, later you notice the chassis number
is 123457. Were you mis-sold?  Its still the same car as advertised and viewed and used by the buyer with a
simple typo in the number?

Lighthouses7

Thanks for the replies.

Nem62 - I guess she could but I am unsure where she would stand in relation to legal ownership if the 2009 owner has been up to no good in relation to the vehicle she owns.

forgtomyname - I get your point, if the caravan was otherwise as described, but if they say 'We are selling serial number x' but sell serial number y, I think it is a breach of contract as they have said they are conveying a specific, unique chattel and have not done so.

That breach may be minor ordinarily and is unlikley to give rise to recission as a remedy if the buyer got what they anticipated. But here, where caravan y as bought has a serial number would have revealed i) possible unroadworthyness and ii) possible deception committed by previous owner, it is a fundmental breach?

Thanks again for your input, both. Any more idea please throw them at me!

Grumpy_chap

Lighthouses7 said:

Thanks for the replies.

Nem62 - I guess she could but I am unsure where she would stand in relation to legal ownership if the 2009 owner has been up to no good in relation to the vehicle she owns.

forgtomyname - I get your point, if the caravan was otherwise as described, but if they say 'We are selling serial number x' but sell serial number y, I think it is a breach of contract as they have said they are conveying a specific, unique chattel and have not done so.

That breach may be minor ordinarily and is unlikley to give rise to recission as a remedy if the buyer got what they anticipated. But here, where caravan y as bought has a serial number would have revealed i) possible unroadworthyness and ii) possible deception committed by previous owner, it is a fundmental breach?

Thanks again for your input, both. Any more idea please throw them at me!

What statements were made prior to purchase about the condition of the caravan and whether it had ever suffered damage?
What investigations were carried out by the purchasers to prove provenance?  (I don't know whether there is a caravan equivalent of an HPI check.)

As others said, if the caravan was damaged and repaired in 2009 and owned from 2018 (4 years) by current owners without detriment, there is unlikely to really be anything wrong with the caravan.  This really does come down to a paperwork matter.  What loss do the owners think they have suffered as a result?

Lighthouses7 said:

Hello everyone, I shall try to cut a long story short. I am trying to help out my friend with the following situation and have hit a brick wall.

She and her husband bought a caravan with the help of finance from a bank's motor finance company back in May 2018, from a caravan retailer.

In March this year they wanted rid and tried to sell it to a well-known company which purchases vehicles. This highlighted a problem: the physical caravan they bought has a different serial number to the one described in the paperwork and as registered at the Caravan Registration & Information System. It appears, going by research into the serial number of the physical caravan which was actually purchased, that it was involved in an accident in 2009 and may not be road-safe.
 cited various sections of the Sale of Goods

The caravan retailer is not responding to messages in relation to this matter so I told my mate to try the finance company. I told her to cite the Sale of Goods Act provisions to say that the contract of sale has terms that the caravan retailer had the legal right to sell the item, that the item sold matched the description as per the serial number in the paperwork and that the item was of satisfactory quality.

I then told her to try invoking Section 75 of the Consumer Credict Act (1974) which I hoped also made the finance company liable for the above breaches (with them having a right of recovery against the caravan seller).

The finance company reply said:

- they can not verify that the caravan in my mate's possession is the same one as sold in 2018

- no refund is due because their policy is to retain payment for each month they had actual use of the caravan

- under the Consumer Rights Act (sic. - she never quoted this, she quoted the Consumer Credit Act) a complaint should be made within the first 6 months of ownership, and for complaints outside this time the onus is on her to provide evidence that there were 'concerns' at the time of sale

They say that this is their 'final correspondence' on the matter.

So, as a result, my mate is lumbered with a caravan that they can't sell because they don't know its legal status and safety for use, for which the finance company is demanding repayments for. It's making hre husband ill with worry.

Where can I advise her to go from here?

Lighthouses7

She has told me further today that it was sold by the retailer as a Category B, but because of the accident it had been in, it was a category C.

So it was sold as a better condition* than what it actually was and at a value which was more than it was worth.

*I am unsure exactly as to how this system works, I know nothing about caravans but a quick search tells me Category C = written-off by an insurance company in its history

Herzlos

You can't sell it to a dealer who is doing the proper checks, but I'm sure you'd find someone to buy it privately.

Anyway, some more details would be useful - how old is it? For it to be the one damaged in 2009 it must be 13+ years old?

How much did they buy it for and how much is outstanding on the finance? What do they reckon the price difference between a category B and C?

Is the selling dealer local? Can they pop in to talk to them or bring the caravan along for them to verify?

Nebulous2

As said above, how did the problem come to light? 

If the number on all the windows does not match the paperwork, it might be reasonable to expect they had checked that themselves. 

The problem the finance company have is they have no idea if the caravan being complained about is the one your friend was sold. 

What kind of price are we talking about? How long and how much is outstanding?

It might be worth chasing the retailer a bit harder.  Particularly if they are a big company selling new vans rather than a small operator.  

forgotmyname

Sold as better condition?   The caravan was in the condition your friend viewed it and accepted it back in 2018. The
fact it may have had repairs is neither here or there. They accepted its condition in 2018 and paid for it.

How is it unroadworthy?  Assume your friend took it on the road at some point? Vehicle condition is 100% down to the
person taking it onto the highway.  Ask any van driver that works for a company that have little care for their vehicle condition
or cheap car hire places that rent out vehicles with major defects.

Went to hire a 7.5ton lorry to help someone move and both inner rear tyres were flat. Not taking that on an 700/800 mile round trip..
But someone inexperienced may not have noticed the tyres but still liable legally.

Lighthouses7

Grumpy_chap said:

Lighthouses7 said:

Thanks for the replies.

Nem62 - I guess she could but I am unsure where she would stand in relation to legal ownership if the 2009 owner has been up to no good in relation to the vehicle she owns.

forgtomyname - I get your point, if the caravan was otherwise as described, but if they say 'We are selling serial number x' but sell serial number y, I think it is a breach of contract as they have said they are conveying a specific, unique chattel and have not done so.

That breach may be minor ordinarily and is unlikley to give rise to recission as a remedy if the buyer got what they anticipated. But here, where caravan y as bought has a serial number would have revealed i) possible unroadworthyness and ii) possible deception committed by previous owner, it is a fundmental breach?

Thanks again for your input, both. Any more idea please throw them at me!

What statements were made prior to purchase about the condition of the caravan and whether it had ever suffered damage?
What investigations were carried out by the purchasers to prove provenance?  (I don't know whether there is a caravan equivalent of an HPI check.)

As others said, if the caravan was damaged and repaired in 2009 and owned from 2018 (4 years) by current owners without detriment, there is unlikely to really be anything wrong with the caravan.  This really does come down to a paperwork matter.  What loss do the owners think they have suffered as a result?

Lighthouses7 said:

Hello everyone, I shall try to cut a long story short. I am trying to help out my friend with the following situation and have hit a brick wall.

She and her husband bought a caravan with the help of finance from a bank's motor finance company back in May 2018, from a caravan retailer.

In March this year they wanted rid and tried to sell it to a well-known company which purchases vehicles. This highlighted a problem: the physical caravan they bought has a different serial number to the one described in the paperwork and as registered at the Caravan Registration & Information System. It appears, going by research into the serial number of the physical caravan which was actually purchased, that it was involved in an accident in 2009 and may not be road-safe.
 cited various sections of the Sale of Goods

The caravan retailer is not responding to messages in relation to this matter so I told my mate to try the finance company. I told her to cite the Sale of Goods Act provisions to say that the contract of sale has terms that the caravan retailer had the legal right to sell the item, that the item sold matched the description as per the serial number in the paperwork and that the item was of satisfactory quality.

I then told her to try invoking Section 75 of the Consumer Credict Act (1974) which I hoped also made the finance company liable for the above breaches (with them having a right of recovery against the caravan seller).

The finance company reply said:

- they can not verify that the caravan in my mate's possession is the same one as sold in 2018

- no refund is due because their policy is to retain payment for each month they had actual use of the caravan

- under the Consumer Rights Act (sic. - she never quoted this, she quoted the Consumer Credit Act) a complaint should be made within the first 6 months of ownership, and for complaints outside this time the onus is on her to provide evidence that there were 'concerns' at the time of sale

They say that this is their 'final correspondence' on the matter.

So, as a result, my mate is lumbered with a caravan that they can't sell because they don't know its legal status and safety for use, for which the finance company is demanding repayments for. It's making hre husband ill with worry.

Where can I advise her to go from here?

Thanks for the reply. Sequentially:

1. The relevant statement the vendor made was that the vehicle was Category B quality when it was a Category C which is (in contract law) a condition as opposed to a warranty. It also rendered it worth less than the purchase price, so there is the loss. It may also be that they have no legal right to own or sell the caravan, if the 2009 owner committed any illegality

2. As for investigations, they checked the serial number in the paperwork on the CRIS (caravan registration) website. I don't think they checked the serial number of the caravan conveyed against the paperwork, but I don't think that is unreasonable - you expect a reputable retailer to be selling what they contract to sell

Lighthouses7

Nebulous2 said:

As said above, how did the problem come to light? 

If the number on all the windows does not match the paperwork, it might be reasonable to expect they had checked that themselves. 

The problem the finance company have is they have no idea if the caravan being complained about is the one your friend was sold. 

What kind of price are we talking about? How long and how much is outstanding?

It might be worth chasing the retailer a bit harder.  Particularly if they are a big company selling new vans rather than a small operator.  

Hello Nebulous. It came to light when they tried to seel it - the company which was the putative purchaser must have checked the serial number on the paperwork against the one on the actual caravan. You do identify the problem the finance company ID'd - they don't know that the caravan in poessession is the one as sold, for which they provided finance. I'm going from memory but think there's abouyt £1300 left of a £6000 loan.