EV Discussion thread

JKenH

Petriix said:

For me it's almost the opposite. I would be actively deterred from going to a location with extortionate charging while I'm drawn to places where I can charge for free. 7kW is ~£2.50 per hour. That's nothing compared to the profit of having a customer on site.

That’s fair enough (particularly if the choice is between several local supermarkets) but I was thinking of destinations where there isn’t an immediate alternative. For instance if you live in Kent and fancy a day’s retail therapy you might head for Bluewater. If that’s where the shops you want to go to are located or if you just want a big day out with a wide choice of shops, a cinema for the kids and places to eat then is there an alternative? You may be happy to suggest somewhere else because there is cheaper charging but will your partner?

Petriix

That's probably a poor example because there's nowhere in Kent that would require me to charge away from home on a round trip to Bluewater. In practice we don't make day trips over 90 miles from home very often. Occasionally we drive to London which is about 120 miles. We always park at Imperial college which costs £10 but has free charging.

JKenH

Petriix said:

That's probably a poor example because there's nowhere in Kent that would require me to charge away from home on a round trip to Bluewater. In practice we don't make day trips over 90 miles from home very often. Occasionally we drive to London which is about 120 miles. We always park at Imperial college which costs £10 but has free charging.

OK Bluewater was maybe a poor example (at least for you) but hopefully you get the idea. I thought as a lot of people live in London and the South East it would resonate with more folk than some shopping centre up North such as the Metro Centre near Newcastle, which perhaps is a better example.

It’s funny how we might have different financial considerations. I, for instance will go out of my way to avoid tolls and can never see the sense in buying a cup of tea out when I can take a flask or a takeaway sandwich when I can make my own. Each to their own.

shinytop

Petriix said:

For me it's almost the opposite. I would be actively deterred from going to a location with extortionate charging while I'm drawn to places where I can charge for free. 7kW is ~£2.50 per hour. That's nothing compared to the profit of having a customer on site.

I thought supermarkets made less than 5% margin.  That wouldn't leave much if any profit on EV drivers? 

JKenH

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

For me it's almost the opposite. I would be actively deterred from going to a location with extortionate charging while I'm drawn to places where I can charge for free. 7kW is ~£2.50 per hour. That's nothing compared to the profit of having a customer on site.

I thought supermarkets made less than 5% margin.  That wouldn't leave much if any profit on EV drivers? 

On that basis (5%) Tesco make around £7.50 profit on our weekly shop and it might cost them around £2 of electricity for the hour we are there. TBH we probably don’t go to Tesco quite as much now. We often used to go to a more distant Tesco at Market Rasen for a “ride out” and get a free top up. 

Getting rid of our EV just happened to coincide with Tesco starting charging. Some folk say there’s no such thing as coincidence.

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

On that basis (5%) Tesco make around £7.50 profit on our weekly shop and it might cost them around £2 of electricity for the hour we are there. 

The 5% (in a good year) is about the correct final out-turn profit that a supermarket makes by the time the figures make it the the published accounts. 

That 5% is after all their costs are taken into account, so after all the various marketing incentives such as Clubcard, fuel discounts, free EV charging, stock losses, donations to the foodbank, hosting the recycling bank, etc.

All of those various marketing activities have a cost associated with them and you can be sure that the clever assessment has determined that the cost is less than the extra revenue generated when taken as a whole.  Tesco  will also have assessed that some customers will learn how to work the system and gain overall, but the majority of customers will not be that savvy and will fall into the traps and end up spending more.  I could not count the number of times we've had a coffee after shopping just because the car was not finished in the hand car wash...

silvercar

It still draws me to Costco, that I can charge for free while I’m there, though it’s a 7KwH charger so probably isn’t worth the effort. Tesco locally is a slightly cheaper than home charging, but that doesn’t draw me in. Biggest draw is the free charging at the local train station, though parking is £4, luckily it’s within walking distance so I don’t have to actually take a train- it’s more a question of whether I drive to the station if the car needs charging or walk if it doesn’t. 

Martyn1981

Maybe more a discussion issue, but an article on cold weather range.

Anecdotal, but a couple of trips for me - yesterday, short 4 miles, at 0C. Didn't pre-warm, so low regen on our steep hill, actually had to press the brake pedal (it's like driving the 24kWh Leaf again). Half mile in I checked the trip and it was suggesting 900Wh/mile ... ouchy ouch. Arrived with an average 450Wh. Hour later came home, sun gone, and temps dropping, but of course the car was still a bit warmer, so started showing 600Wh/mile, and got home at an average 350Wh/mile ..... so ~400Wh/mile for the whole trip. Thinking about it, our last ICEV took about 4 miles to warm up, couldn't use the cabin heater on short trips.

Today, much warmer, 3C, and a longer roundtrip of 45 miles, but still a disappointing 300Wh/mile, should have stuck to 70.

Anyways, for 'not extremely cold weather', looks like a 15-20% penalty. Which seems to tie in with this article that suggests a 15-20% drop for some Tesla's based on data. But the really interesting bit, is the estimated loss for a Jaq I-pace. I can only assume that something strange happened when they did the maths?

Check Out Winter And Cold Weather EV Range Loss Data From 7,000 Cars

There's no doubt electric cars lose range in cold temps. According to Recurrent, some can lose up to 35 percent of their estimated range in freezing weather. However, there are many factors involved, and every vehicle is different.

No matter which EV you chose, it's going to have fewer miles of range in the winter than in warmer seasons. If you live in an area that experiences cold weather often, you may want to choose your EV wisely. Not only would it be smart to get an electric car with the most range you can afford, but also one that seems to lose less range in cold temps. That said, if you just use your EV for short trips around town, it won't likely make much difference.

1961Nick

With a cabin & battery pre-heat our TM3 loses about 20% range when it's this cold. Without the pre-heat it obviously depends on the length of the journey.

I know 3 iPace owners & all of them say that cold weather seriously impacts the range. One was suffering range anxiety on his daily 160 mile commute until he installed a charger at his office. 

JKenH

Winter range of a 62kWh Leaf: 125 miles??? Based on the summer range, I think it must be the 40kWh version.

On a more general point and based on “lived experience” (latest NHS gobbledegook to justify employing more admin staff instead of nurses) of a Leaf, they must be looking at 100% to zero. So 80% to 20% (if you are doing a long journey top up) or, if you like, charge at 20% up to 80% equates to 75 miles before having to stop again.

My 380 (as it turned out) mile trip today would have worked out as follows

Home charge down to 20% 100 miles
Next charge (20% to 80%) 75miles  (175 miles covered)
Next charge (20% to 80%) 75 miles  (250 miles covered)
Next charge (20% to 80%) 75 miles  (325 miles covered)
Next charge (20% to 64%) 55 miles  (380 miles covered)


That’s fully charged at home plus 4 rapid charges - 3 adding 60% and one 44% top up (or 24% if I were prepared to risk arriving home with an empty battery.) This is theoretical, of course, as it assumes there is a charging station available and working just as I reach 20%. It might not have worked out quite this well in practice as my second en route charge would have been needed after 175 miles which would have been close to where I left the M25 to join the M3. There are no services between the M1 and the M3 and the ones on the M3 are several miles beyond my destination, so a detour off my route would have been needed adding miles and time.

Costwise 


41 kWh (36kWh plus charging losses) at 5.5p £2.25
3 x 21.6 + 15.8 = 80.6 kWh @ say 75p/kWh £60.45
Total £62.70


As a comparison the stats for my petrol Golf are starting with a full tank

Total mileage driven 449 (includes 4 short local trips totalling 69 miles since I last refuelled Saturday,  all in the last few days in freezing conditions )
Range remaining 70 miles
Average mpg 51.5 

Given the 4 local trips all involved cold starts and most of today’s journey was completed at 70mph motorway speed where possible (unfortunately because of stop/start traffic on the M25 and M1 the return trip took 80 mins longer) 51.5 mpg is pretty similar to what I might have achieved in average weather. Todays trips averaged around 53mpg as long runs.

380 miles/51.5 mpg x 4.546 = 33.54 litres @ £1.50/litre = £50.31

For today’s trip, therefore, it was cheaper in fuel cost for me to do the trip in a Golf. It also saved me around 2 hours in stops assuming chargers had been positioned exactly where I optimally needed them without detour. They weren’t of course but even if I had planned them there is no guarantee that they would be available/working. Just in case any one points out I would be taking a toilet or snack break anyway; I didn’t on the way down (3h40m) but after 30 miles I did stop at a garage to buy a bottle of water and 3 times in a lay-by to splash the water on the screen as my washers were frozen (it was -6 in places). On the way back, because of the heavy traffic, I did stop for a toilet break, a swig of luke warm tea from a flask and a chocolate bar but it only took 15 minutes at most.

In addition to the time saved I didn’t have any stress looking for a charger that worked, I didn’t have to waste time planning stops and I didn’t have to go off my route to find one and I didn’t have to factor in extra time in case a plan B or C was needed.

I am not saying ICE cars are better than EVs; I agree they aren’t,  but, for me, on a trip like today when fitting in over 8 hours of driving a petrol Golf is considerably more convenient than my old Leaf. Yes I miss my Leaf but today just would not have been feasible or relaxing in it. Yes, today is an edge case but I need a car that covers me for edge cases. Most of us will have an edge case once a year - what it comes down to is how much inconvenience one will put up with to make it work. For some the attractions of an EV are considerable and will outweigh any inconvenience but for me they don’t - at least not yet. It’s a personal view, not necessarily anyone else’s 


It might be possible to do the same trip in a 300 mile (summer) range car (200-240 mile winter) with one stop but when it comes down to economics I couldn’t buy one, even secondhand, for much less than twice the cost of my 2020 Golf and I just don’t think doing so would save me any money. Yes, on this trip it might be cheaper to fuel but the cost of financing/opportunity cost plus the depreciation would far outweigh any savings I might make on fuel and maintenance. 

As always, If I have made a mistake in the calculations (I sometimes can) please let me know and I will correct them.