EV Discussion thread

Spies

What are peoples thoughts on switching from a Clio to a Q90 Zeo with a battery lease?

Grumpy_chap

Spies said:

What are peoples thoughts on switching from a Clio to a Q90 Zeo with a battery lease?

What options are you being given to buy-out the lease?
Is the capital cost for a used car with battery lease any saving over an equivalent with an owned battery?

Spies

Would the dealer be able to answer that question or would I have to enquire with Renault? 

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

Well, just been out for the afternoon with the MiL. 
There happened to be a display in the shopping centre of Toyota / Lexus vehicles, including the bZ4x.

MiL commented that it was a car that was launched too late to be a success because electric cars have had their day and on the way out.
This odd statement was backed up by reference to someone MiL knows who went to Cornwall in their EV and had to stop twice to plug it in.  Now, from us to Cornwall is a slow 250ish miles (depends where in Cornwall, obviously) and probably takes 5 hours at the best of times.  I commented that two stops seemed reasonable given the need for comfort breaks, only for MiL to retort that was ridiculous as it was an easy journey without stopping and how it was essential that EV's were consigned to history.
I knew it was not worth continuing the discussion any further given how MiL is stubborn and it was not worth the effort, even when she is provably wrong.

I just though this was such an odd viewpoint so I share it to see if it has any more general traction amongst people in general.

Now, for quite different reasons, I do think that the bZ4x is a car that has been launched too late.  Not because EV's are history, but because the intransigence shown by Toyota and other legacy-auto risks them becoming also-rans while they sit back and let new start-up businesses steal a march.

Your MiL’s views are quite common among my generation. Most of the arguments I hear put forward against EVs from dyed in the wool ICE drivers with no experience of EVs are myths from 10 years ago, with little substance and tbh I can’t be bothered to put them right. In ten years time they probably won’t be driving anyway.

Having said that there are also a lot of EV drivers around in forums and in Facebook groups who, like me, have grown weary of the challenge of public chargers and are heading back to ICE vehicles. We’ve been there done that and don’t want it. The economics for many others no longer stack up. I am surprised just how easily I have adapted to ICE driving again. Next month I have a 390 mile round trip to Surrey for a funeral that would be a nightmare at this time of year in my old Leaf. You are lucky to get much over 100 miles from a fully charged 40kWh Leaf at this time of year and around 80 miles on the next charge. That’s 4 charging stops assuming you find 4 consecutive chargers working.

Yes we are a minority of EV drivers but the idea (that I used to promote) that once you’ve driven an EV you’ll never go back to ICE is also a myth. Most EV drivers won’t go back - the EV they have bought suits their lifestyle, they charge almost exclusively at home and rarely exceed the range of their (often large battery) EV. 

My son came up to visit us this weekend in my old Leaf and I gave him my old charging cards. He thanked me but told me that (after 3 years driving a 30kwh Leaf) he has no intention of using public chargers. I seem to recall (please correct me if I am wrong) that in the DoT survey which I recently linked some 75% of respondents have a second car. (I will check back later and confirm I remembered this correctly.) I said when I got my Golf (and before parting with my Leaf) that EVs make the perfect second car. I stand by that if you can charge at home. They will work as an only car for many people but not everyone.

There are a lot of people driving EVs as their sole vehicle for ethical reasons and many others for purely financial reasons (company cars and sal/sac schemes) but, unless you are intent on proving your eco credentials, without the incentives EVs are still not a convincing replacement for ICE cars for most people.

This is a green and ethical forum and you might expect that folk will be enthusiastic about EVs so best not to base any decision about running an EV just on what you see on this forum. There are alternative points of view, often  based on personal experience, and it is unwise just to dismiss anyone who doesn’t want an EV as some swivel eyed loon.

Edit: from the government survey, details of the sample of respondents. This is not necessarily representative of all EV drivers but note the sample includes PHEV drivers as well.

To maximise the sample size that could be achieved, participants were primarily sourced from a survey panel of members of the public (505) and this was supplemented with recruitment via EV driver associations and online forums (343) to give a total of 848 respondents.

 Existing data indicates that there were 600,000+ ultra-low emission cars in the UK by the end of Q3 2021, of which 52% were battery electric and 45% were plug-in hybrid electric3. The sample achieved in this survey includes 627 respondents with continuous access to a battery electric vehicle (BEV) (74%), 340 to a plug-in hybrid electric (PHEV) (40%), and 119 to both types of vehicles (14%), suggesting that BEV drivers are slightly overrepresented in this sample.

About one fifth of the sample reported being in single-car households (18%), 6% reported being in multi-car households with EVs only, while the remaining 76% were multi-car households with both EVs and non-EVs. 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1078871/dft-ev-driver-survey-summary-report.pdf

JKenH

Range test: How far can electric cars go in winter?

https://www.whatcar.com/news/range-test-how-far-can-electric-cars-go-in-winter/n24274

Spies

EV deniers are the same ones that would happily have our nation burn coal instead of investing in renewables. 

JKenH

Spies said:

EV deniers are the same ones that would happily have our nation burn coal instead of investing in renewables. 

I can’t recall that phrase being used before. What is an EV denier exactly? Someone who doesn’t own an EV?

Spies

As in people denying that BEVs are the future of transport and that they're a fad that will "go away". 

70sbudgie

Spies said:

What are peoples thoughts on switching from a Clio to a Q90 Zeo with a battery lease?

I drive a 2019 Zoe with a battery lease. I pay for the top lease value (unlimited miles) and have calculated that I'd need to own the car for more than 10 years for the lease option to be the more expensive one. I have no idea what the resale value of a 10 year old EV would be, or whether the lease would effect it at that point. Apart from the initial outlay, the reason I chose the lease was the difference in battery warranties - replacement at 70% on the lease and 60% on the purchase. I have no idea if it would be the same now, given how much the technology has moved on in the last 4 years. But I've not had an inkling that I'd need either yet (and it is possible the purchase was only for 3 years). 

EricMears

For anyone whose regular usage is very long trips,  the cost of public rapid charging would indeed be outrageous.

But for most people who seldom exceed their car's maximum range in a day, public charging costs are almost irrelevant and even on a single trip of twice your max range,  half of the cost would be at home rates (which might be as low as 5p/kWh so even if the public rate was as high as £1/kWh their average cost would still be less than for an ICE.

But it isn't only about cost/mile.  There is (or should be) some satisfaction that the driver behind or those living nearby aren't subjected to a blast of poisonous gasses as even when a coal fired power station was supplying the energy,  its waste products are dispersed a couple of hundred feet above ground.