EV Discussion thread

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

Awful, was getting 3.1miles per kWh, so stopped at A52 shell. Both chargers faulty, drove round Bingham a bit until I found the BP ones, 3 different faults at each of those. Eventually found a new shell charge station at the A6 A46 junction. First charger wouldn’t take the payment. 2nd charger worked fine and got a charge to get home, at 3.30

Shell and BP and Shell - possibly adding a couple of charge points to the forecourt because they "have to" rather than willing embracing the change.

I have never had to use anything other than Tesla Superchargers, but it does strike me that the connectivity of these other brands of chargers must be very comparable.  Therefore, some kind of app that populates charger state (working / out of service) and availability onto the sat nav must be a viable possibility.
I mean, right now, I can see from my app without having to go anywhere that the nearest Tesla charge location to home has 16 charging stations of which one is out of service and 6 are currently available.
The next nearest Tesla charge location has 5 charging stations and all are currently in service and in use with an estimated wait time of 5 minutes.
That kind of information would make the network far more user friendly and serviceable and probably does not need any actual infrastructure upgrade to become a possibility.

There is also, from my observations, an apparent indifference amongst charge point operators as to whether they work or not. 
The nearest on street charge location to my home has three stalls of which two have been out of service for the whole of last year and remain out of service. 
The next nearest on street charge location, which is a different Council and different operator, has three stalls and one is currently out of service approaching a month like that now.
I really cannot think of another service product where operators would make the investment to install the provision and then be so absolutely indifferent to the equipment not being in working (and revenue-generating) order for >99% uptime.

JKenH

silvercar said:

JKenH said:

I’ve not posted on this thread for a while but I thought I’d share this. My son visited us at the weekend in his (my old) 40kWh Leaf. He normally makes the 100 mile journey ok but he was a bit concerned about the head wind driving SSW down the A46 and M69. I messaged to ask how the journey went. This was his reply.

Awful, was getting 3.1miles per kWh, so stopped at A52 shell. Both chargers faulty, drove round Bingham a bit until I found the BP ones, 3 different faults at each of those. Eventually found a new shell charge station at the A6 A46 junction. First charger wouldn’t take the payment. 2nd charger worked fine and got a charge to get home, at 3.30

The point of this post - there is still a long way to go with charger reliability. 6 chargers tried before he found one working. He knew from past experience that the most convenient 

No he didn’t do any research but then knowing the best place to stop was the A52 Shell chargers at Saxondale on the A46 (given that there are still no chargers at Leicester Forest East), he didn’t feel the need to. 

How long before it will it be possible to jump in an EV and set off with the confidence that refuelling won’t be a problem like it is in a petrol car.

I know there are a lot of leafs around, so Chademo chargers are here to stay, but they do suffer from a lack of chargers far more than CCS. Having access to a Leaf and a Tesla, the Tesla charging opportunities are so much greater we avoid both making journeys that will need charging away from home at the same time.

Yes, the Leaf is the third most common EV on the road after the Tesla models 3 and Y.

silvercar

JKenH said:

silvercar said:

JKenH said:

I’ve not posted on this thread for a while but I thought I’d share this. My son visited us at the weekend in his (my old) 40kWh Leaf. He normally makes the 100 mile journey ok but he was a bit concerned about the head wind driving SSW down the A46 and M69. I messaged to ask how the journey went. This was his reply.

Awful, was getting 3.1miles per kWh, so stopped at A52 shell. Both chargers faulty, drove round Bingham a bit until I found the BP ones, 3 different faults at each of those. Eventually found a new shell charge station at the A6 A46 junction. First charger wouldn’t take the payment. 2nd charger worked fine and got a charge to get home, at 3.30

The point of this post - there is still a long way to go with charger reliability. 6 chargers tried before he found one working. He knew from past experience that the most convenient 

No he didn’t do any research but then knowing the best place to stop was the A52 Shell chargers at Saxondale on the A46 (given that there are still no chargers at Leicester Forest East), he didn’t feel the need to. 

How long before it will it be possible to jump in an EV and set off with the confidence that refuelling won’t be a problem like it is in a petrol car.

I know there are a lot of leafs around, so Chademo chargers are here to stay, but they do suffer from a lack of chargers far more than CCS. Having access to a Leaf and a Tesla, the Tesla charging opportunities are so much greater we avoid both making journeys that will need charging away from home at the same time.

Yes, the Leaf is the third most common EV on the road after the Tesla models 3 and Y.

Yes, but in 2023 less than 2% of new EVs registered were Chademo. 1 in 10 BEVs on the road are Chademo.

https://evboosters.com/ev-charging-news/chademos-role-in-ev-charging-declines-as-europe-moves-toward-ccs-standard/

Exiled_Tyke

Using Tesla and Octopus (Electroverse)  for my CCS charging I've never had a serious problem.  I once had a Tesla charger stop and instruct me to use another stall which I did and that's the worst experience so far.   Sadly have also had to use BP Pulse (just once), not good but was still reliable on that occasion.    

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

Awful, was getting 3.1miles per kWh, so stopped at A52 shell. Both chargers faulty, drove round Bingham a bit until I found the BP ones, 3 different faults at each of those. Eventually found a new shell charge station at the A6 A46 junction. First charger wouldn’t take the payment. 2nd charger worked fine and got a charge to get home, at 3.30

Shell and BP and Shell - possibly adding a couple of charge points to the forecourt because they "have to" rather than willing embracing the change.

I have never had to use anything other than Tesla Superchargers, but it does strike me that the connectivity of these other brands of chargers must be very comparable.  Therefore, some kind of app that populates charger state (working / out of service) and availability onto the sat nav must be a viable possibility.
I mean, right now, I can see from my app without having to go anywhere that the nearest Tesla charge location to home has 16 charging stations of which one is out of service and 6 are currently available.
The next nearest Tesla charge location has 5 charging stations and all are currently in service and in use with an estimated wait time of 5 minutes.
That kind of information would make the network far more user friendly and serviceable and probably does not need any actual infrastructure upgrade to become a possibility.

There is also, from my observations, an apparent indifference amongst charge point operators as to whether they work or not. 
The nearest on street charge location to my home has three stalls of which two have been out of service for the whole of last year and remain out of service. 
The next nearest on street charge location, which is a different Council and different operator, has three stalls and one is currently out of service approaching a month like that now.
I really cannot think of another service product where operators would make the investment to install the provision and then be so absolutely indifferent to the equipment not being in working (and revenue-generating) order for >99% uptime.

I believe Zap Map relies on both live network data and customer feedback to identify non working chargers. I don’t think Zap Map have live access to all networks, though. If a charger is off line there is a high probability that the info ZapMap has not been updated. I believe some chargers can be out of service for weeks.

If you are in a hurry to get a charge the last thing on your mind is updating the ZapMap app about a (or 6) failed charge(s). 

So much for:

The UK EV Charging Regulations 2024: (Effective 24 November 2024)

Reliability & Uptime Standards: Rapid charge points of 50kW and above must maintain a 99% reliability rate, meaning they must be operational and available for use 99% of the time. The chargepoint status, whether ‘available,’ ‘charging,’ or ‘reserved,’ as well as non-functioning charge points, will impact the reliability score.
https://www.rolecserv.com/News/the-uk-ev-charging-regulations-2024%3A-a-guide

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

So much for:

The UK EV Charging Regulations 2024: (Effective 24 November 2024)

Reliability & Uptime Standards: Rapid charge points of 50kW and above must maintain a 99% reliability rate, 

Well, I think that is kind of what I was getting at.
It is not EV's that are the problem, nor the charge points per se, but the management mindset that allows a charge point to be out of service for an extended period of time.  That becomes even more absurd when considering that the charge points will all communicate status to a central control hub within the operating company's control.

What could possibly drive a commercial organisation to make an infrastructure investment to install charge points, possibly pay an ongoing lease for the space, and yet be so laissez-faire about the facility being out of service for so long?
I note the locations your son experienced issues with were Shell and BP.
The nearest on-road provision to my home is Shell Recharge.
The next nearest is Source London which is part of TotalEnergies Charge Europe which is a subsidiary of the petroleum company Total.

Is it possible that the oil companies are so desperate to slow the pace of progress that they are simultaneously greenwashing by promoting the number of charge points they have invested in, while also actually putting in place processes to maximise the failure of those charge points so that they can push (or have pushed on their behalf) the narrative that EV charging is not reliable, best stick with a petrol car?

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

So much for:

The UK EV Charging Regulations 2024: (Effective 24 November 2024)

Reliability & Uptime Standards: Rapid charge points of 50kW and above must maintain a 99% reliability rate, 

Is it possible that the oil companies are so desperate to slow the pace of progress that they are simultaneously greenwashing by promoting the number of charge points they have invested in, while also actually putting in place processes to maximise the failure of those charge points so that they can push (or have pushed on their behalf) the narrative that EV charging is not reliable, best stick with a petrol car?

Whether or not that is the intention, it seems to be the result.

JKenH

Exiled_Tyke said:

Using Tesla and Octopus (Electroverse)  for my CCS charging I've never had a serious problem.  I once had a Tesla charger stop and instruct me to use another stall which I did and that's the worst experience so far.   Sadly have also had to use BP Pulse (just once), not good but was still reliable on that occasion.    

Tesla are in a different league to other charge point providers - the charging experience is their USP. 

Hoenir

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

So much for:

The UK EV Charging Regulations 2024: (Effective 24 November 2024)

Reliability & Uptime Standards: Rapid charge points of 50kW and above must maintain a 99% reliability rate, 

What could possibly drive a commercial organisation to make an infrastructure investment to install charge points, possibly pay an ongoing lease for the space, and yet be so laissez-faire about the facility being out of service for so long?

Botton line is profitability. Full cost of recruiting and employing a fully trained engineer , supplying them with a vehicle etc mounts up. Be a huge amount of non productive time travelling between sites currently.  Supply of replacement parts possibly an issue as well. As equipment is manufactured off shore. 

Grumpy_chap

Hoenir said:

Botton line is profitability. Full cost of recruiting and employing a fully trained engineer , supplying them with a vehicle etc mounts up. Be a huge amount of non productive time travelling between sites currently.  Supply of replacement parts possibly an issue as well. As equipment is manufactured off shore. 

I am not convinced.

These large oil companies that are operating the non-operational EV points are experienced in having equipment installed, probably leased, with KPI contracts for the service and reactive response times.
There is probably far less to go wrong in an EV charge point than a petrol pump.
When was the last time you saw a filling station with a petrol pump for sufficiently long enough that you simply accept that facility is simply not available to use?



EDIT to add another thought.
I wonder whether the EV charge point companies are receiving grants that exceed the cost of installation, hence no need for it to actually work (beyond first commissioning to prove compliance and recieving the grant).

I fear I am becoming a cynic.