The big fat Electric Vehicle bashing thread.

grumiofoundation

Deleted_User said:

Deleted_User said:

Electric cars are still priced out of reach for most ordinary folk who buy used cars outright and run them for a good few years until they fancy something newer or they need replacing.

Exactly this.

I get the green credentials of electric cars and accept that EV is a better way forward for the environment but they are out of reach for many money saving minded people. I find that some EV owners become totally blinkered to that. This is a money saving forum. I see people on here talk about how they save £1k-£2k per year in fuel costs by having an EV but are they actually saving that if you are spending more up front to get an EV?

Yes. If you save 1-2k per year then the cost of ownership will drastically decrease over time (don't really understand what the issue with that concept is?). 

Take a second hand leaf for 10k that saves you say 1.5k per year (vs petrol car). After two years the cost of ownership will be the same cost as buying a 7k petrol car, the cost after 4 years as if bought a 4k  petrol car and so on.

And that ignores the fact that the electric car is most likely going to be worth more after 2 years, 4 years etc than the cheaper petrol car.

How much is a petrol car equivalent to a 10k leaf?

For clarity I am talking about people who are in the position to buy and use a second hand electric car (not arguing that for various reasons many aren't). 

grumiofoundation

iwb100 said:

The thing is it’s cost of buying that’s prohibitive. People have cars that they need. I am getting a 7 seater because I need it. What choice would I have electric for sensible money?

I think the other major barrier is the network. Electric dealers I’ve spoken to who have had EVs a while even say that it’s getting worse with respect to charging as more EVs are sold and the stats show it’s becoming drastically worse. The sorts of trips families have to do in the holidays on long motorways journeys with kids need a charging network that can be analogous or as close as possible to filling up at the service station. Or a range that makes charging unnecessary. So you need affordable EVs that have real world range using the heater or air con and music etc of 400 miles. Or thereabouts. Or you need a car that charges in 5-10 minutes and enough chargers at service stations etc to satiate any demand. Imagine queuing for a charger that takes say half an hour and you have two cars in front of you. Nobody on earth will tolerate that.

To make EVs work we needed a huge infrastructure program that started years ago to secure land and reconfigure existing operations to allow massive increase in charging points. To really work you need every parking space at every service station to be a charger. And they all need to work.

That’s the challenge. Yet as said above nobody is doing a thing about it.

Obviously can't speak for everywhere but we have observed the opposite at motorway services have gone from 1 or 2 chargers to 6-10, and considering we take what tallmansix would class as an impossible journey we stop at a lot of service stations!!


The only time we have had to queue for over half an hour was due to a petrol car thinking the electric charging was a parking spot.

I would be interested to see the stats that say charging is getting worse (I presume you meant longer to charge?) if you have them?

Imagine queuing for a charger that takes say half an hour and you have two cars in front of you. Nobody on earth will tolerate that.

How long did people queue for petrol earlier this year?

iwb100

grumiofoundation said:

Deleted_User said:

Deleted_User said:

Electric cars are still priced out of reach for most ordinary folk who buy used cars outright and run them for a good few years until they fancy something newer or they need replacing.

Exactly this.

I get the green credentials of electric cars and accept that EV is a better way forward for the environment but they are out of reach for many money saving minded people. I find that some EV owners become totally blinkered to that. This is a money saving forum. I see people on here talk about how they save £1k-£2k per year in fuel costs by having an EV but are they actually saving that if you are spending more up front to get an EV?

Yes. If you save 1-2k per year then the cost of ownership will drastically decrease over time (don't really understand what the issue with that concept is?). 

Take a second hand leaf for 10k that saves you say 1.5k per year (vs petrol car). After two years the cost of ownership will be the same cost as buying a 7k petrol car, the cost after 4 years as if bought a 4k  petrol car and so on.

And that ignores the fact that the electric car is most likely going to be worth more after 2 years, 4 years etc than the cheaper petrol car.

How much is a petrol car equivalent to a 10k leaf?

For clarity I am talking about people who are in the position to buy and use a second hand electric car (not arguing that for various reasons many aren't). 

Why don’t you offer up the cost of cars equivalent to what people actually have already?

Instead of rocking out a second hand Nissan Leaf.

Top selling cars in 2022 are the Corsa, Kia Sportage, Ford Puma, Hyundai Tucson…

Whats the relative cost of something equivalent to the Sportage, Tucson, Qashqai (further down but in the top 10 sellers list). The sort of family cars people are actually buying. And given these are family cars needs to be something with similar space and storage and a pretty decent range.,.

Herzlos

Deleted_User said:

Deleted_User said:

Electric cars are still priced out of reach for most ordinary folk who buy used cars outright and run them for a good few years until they fancy something newer or they need replacing.

Exactly this.

I get the green credentials of electric cars and accept that EV is a better way forward for the environment but they are out of reach for many money saving minded people. I find that some EV owners become totally blinkered to that. This is a money saving forum. I see people on here talk about how they save £1k-£2k per year in fuel costs by having an EV but are they actually saving that if you are spending more up front to get an EV?

Take my circumstances, 15k miles per year mostly commuting with 1 or 2 people in the car but I need a 7 seater for a number of journeys per month to get all the family in. Plug that into Autotrader and the cheapest EV is £27k and is actually a van with a top speed of 84mph.

I'm in a similar boat to you though less mileage and actually bought the car you are talking about (the Berlingo). It actually handles pretty well for what is essentially a van.

I went for the diesel because I got a good deal on a nearly new one and couldn't stretch to an electric one given there aren't any used ones yet. 

However, if you compared a new diesel at £26k to a new electric at £32k, it really doesn't take long to recoup that £6k difference. If I was buying new then I'd absolutely have taken the EV; as it is I'll hopefully trade up to the electric one as soon as I can justify it.

I do agree with your point that if you're buying used cars for £10k there aren't any big EVs on the market yet, but give it time. 

As for an 84mph top speed; that should be enough for UK roads.

It's worth noting that the Berlingo/Combo Life are only available in EV form now and are the cheapest 7 seaters in the motability catalog, so I'm expecting there to be a lot of them on the 2nd hand market in 3 years.

DB1904

Petriix said:

Deleted_User said:

Electric cars are still priced out of reach for most ordinary folk who buy used cars outright and run them for a good few years until they fancy something newer or they need replacing.

I've found it quite the opposite. Running a brand new EV has saved me thousands vs keeping my old diesel car on the road. 

An old diesel as in bought and paid for or your last car was a diesel and on finance?

grumiofoundation

iwb100 said:

grumiofoundation said:

Deleted_User said:

Deleted_User said:

Electric cars are still priced out of reach for most ordinary folk who buy used cars outright and run them for a good few years until they fancy something newer or they need replacing.

Exactly this.

I get the green credentials of electric cars and accept that EV is a better way forward for the environment but they are out of reach for many money saving minded people. I find that some EV owners become totally blinkered to that. This is a money saving forum. I see people on here talk about how they save £1k-£2k per year in fuel costs by having an EV but are they actually saving that if you are spending more up front to get an EV?

Yes. If you save 1-2k per year then the cost of ownership will drastically decrease over time (don't really understand what the issue with that concept is?). 

Take a second hand leaf for 10k that saves you say 1.5k per year (vs petrol car). After two years the cost of ownership will be the same cost as buying a 7k petrol car, the cost after 4 years as if bought a 4k  petrol car and so on.

And that ignores the fact that the electric car is most likely going to be worth more after 2 years, 4 years etc than the cheaper petrol car.

How much is a petrol car equivalent to a 10k leaf?

For clarity I am talking about people who are in the position to buy and use a second hand electric car (not arguing that for various reasons many aren't). 

Why don’t you offer up the cost of cars equivalent to what people actually have already?

Instead of rocking out a second hand Nissan Leaf.

Top selling cars in 2022 are the Corsa, Kia Sportage, Ford Puma, Hyundai Tucson…

Whats the relative cost of something equivalent to the Sportage, Tucson, Qashqai (further down but in the top 10 sellers list). The sort of family cars people are actually buying. And given these are family cars needs to be something with similar space and storage and a pretty decent range.,.

I was replying to the poster who stated

"I see people on here talk about how they save £1k-£2k per year in fuel costs by having an EV but are they actually saving that if you are spending more up front to get an EV?"

With how this can result in savings.


It was also this poster who 'rocked out' a second hand leaf....


I would suggest that on most fronts a second hand leaf is comparable to most 5 seater family cars (I assume you mean second cars versions of all those cars)  - the range being the (potential) issue.

What constitutes a 'pretty decent range' is surely dependent on the driver(s). Someone who drives <50 miles a day doesn't really need a car that can do 400 miles between charges/going to the petrol station. Someone who drives a >200 miles every weekend is not going to really enjoy a car with 70 miles range.

Herzlos

grumiofoundation said:

If buying a second car electric car (lets say range <100 miles) then driving longer journeys is more time consuming due to frequent stops and the fact you have to stop regularly means you can be forced to wait for chargers. Even then unless you are driving through very rural areas for a long distance I would say the charging infrastructure (i.e. motorway service stations) is still up to the job - and getting better all the time.

For perspective though, the vast bulk of journeys are under 10 miles. Beyond some extreme cases needing to stop every 100 miles isn't really an issue (assuming easy access to charging). 

Even travelling sales guys probably have enough paperwork and calls to do to fill up a charging stop.

The only people I can see who'd struggle to charge every 100 miles are long distance couriers and haulage, but they'd save so much money.

The people with more particular car needs will struggle though; there aren't many 7/8/9 seat EVs on the market yet (some launched last year but will need a while to trickle down to an affordable point), and I think only the Tesla X can tow.  But those are still a fairly small niche of car ownerships.

Grumpy_chap

Petriix said:

Deleted_User said:

Electric cars are still priced out of reach for most ordinary folk who buy used cars outright and run them for a good few years until they fancy something newer or they need replacing.

I've found it quite the opposite. Running a brand new EV has saved me thousands vs keeping my old diesel car on the road. 

You trott this out regularly with very unconventional take on accounting practices when you try to explain the detail...

Petriix said:

I made a simple spreadsheet to demonstrate how paying more each month can save you money... 



That depreciation figure is the key variable. It's highly unpredictable and represents the element of risk with my approach. Obviously fuel costs may change too. But I demonstrably have more money by switching from a 16 year old (fairly economical) diesel to a brand new EV; albeit some of that is locked in the equity in the car.

In reality it's actually better than those figures. Maintenance on the EV has been just £33 in 16 months and depreciation has been zero. The old diesel needed £800 of work to keep on the road. I owe £17,500 on the mortgage (having paid off £2,500 and paid £3k towards the EV from savings) so would be £5,500 in credit if I sold it today.

So, with capital outlay equaling equity, I can currently ignore those costs. I could stop paying the mortgage for the next year without penalty due to the overpayment reserve. While I'm happy to risk the value of that equity dropping, for comparison I only need to look at the running costs and interest.

The old diesel would have cost ~ £2,600 to cover the same 14k miles. The EV has cost ~ £600. That's a £2,000 contribution towards the current equity and potential future depreciation. But, if I sold it today, I'd have that £2k as profit.

But, it gets even better... The next 14k miles would cost more like £3k in the diesel while it will still be around £600 in the EV. With inflation at such a high level, money already paid for an asset effectively appreciates in value. The best deal on a new MG5 is around £4k more than I paid. The money I owe is devaluing faster than the interest rate I fixed at.

It's not rocket surgery. I know it's counterintuitive and not without risk, but sometimes spending money saves you more.

ontheroad1970 said:

How do you get paid that equity each month? - by that I mean, cold hard cash in your pocket?

Cross_Man said:

I don't want to entirely discount the potential that buying a new EV (or even a new ICE) could work in such a way that there could be a "pay-back".  I had a similar consideration once when I was driving a 2.5 litre petrol-guzzling Mondeo that was starting to accrue maintenance costs.  I did compare the option to a C4 diesel that was on an attractive offer and in theory the fuel savings would have eventually paid for the car.

However, that calculation seems entirely flawed.  Which lines are + costs and which lines are - savings to reach the £160? 
The scenario is not right in the idea of "buying equity" every month.  
You start with £25k equity (cash) and exchange that for £25k equity (car) on day 1.
After 1 month you pay £30 interest and £220 capital repayment (£250 total).  You also have reduced equity as the car is no longer worth £25k.
Repeat each subsequent month.
In an extreme scenario, the car could be an appreciating asset in which case you'd have an "equity" value but no "depreciation" value - it is simply not possible to have an individual item showing depreciation and accumulation in the same period.

Anyway, it is entirely irrelevant for the OP who is likely frustrated by the de-railing of their thread.  They have a perfectly good Fiesta (paid for) that will last them for many years and provide low-cost motoring.  It is possible the OP could make a reduction in operating costs by swapping to an early Leaf, but they may well not feel that they have been "upgraded" in their car if they make that change.  Whatever operating cost reduction might be possible, the OP will need to set that against the extra capital required to achieve that and, for the mileage profile in consideration, that is likely to be quite a long time even if the increase in purchase price was from the current £5k Fiesta to a £7k Leaf.

Proposals and consideration to a new £25k MG5 or any equivalent car would only be relevant if the OP was considering against a brand new car but that does not seem to be the OP's suggestion.

grumiofoundation

Herzlos said:

grumiofoundation said:

If buying a second car electric car (lets say range <100 miles) then driving longer journeys is more time consuming due to frequent stops and the fact you have to stop regularly means you can be forced to wait for chargers. Even then unless you are driving through very rural areas for a long distance I would say the charging infrastructure (i.e. motorway service stations) is still up to the job - and getting better all the time.

For perspective though, the vast bulk of journeys are under 10 miles. Beyond some extreme cases needing to stop every 100 miles isn't really an issue (assuming easy access to charging). 

Even travelling sales guys probably have enough paperwork and calls to do to fill up a charging stop.

The only people I can see who'd struggle to charge every 100 miles are long distance couriers and haulage, but they'd save so much money.

The people with more particular car needs will struggle though; there aren't many 7/8/9 seat EVs on the market yet (some launched last year but will need a while to trickle down to an affordable point), and I think only the Tesla X can tow.  But those are still a fairly small niche of car ownerships.

Indeed I have got a lot of work done at motorway service stations while we are charging! 

[Deleted User]

grumiofoundation said:

Deleted_User said:

Deleted_User said:

Electric cars are still priced out of reach for most ordinary folk who buy used cars outright and run them for a good few years until they fancy something newer or they need replacing.

Exactly this.

I get the green credentials of electric cars and accept that EV is a better way forward for the environment but they are out of reach for many money saving minded people. I find that some EV owners become totally blinkered to that. This is a money saving forum. I see people on here talk about how they save £1k-£2k per year in fuel costs by having an EV but are they actually saving that if you are spending more up front to get an EV?

Yes. If you save 1-2k per year then the cost of ownership will drastically decrease over time (don't really understand what the issue with that concept is?). 

Take a second hand leaf for 10k that saves you say 1.5k per year (vs petrol car). After two years the cost of ownership will be the same cost as buying a 7k petrol car, the cost after 4 years as if bought a 4k  petrol car and so on.

And that ignores the fact that the electric car is most likely going to be worth more after 2 years, 4 years etc than the cheaper petrol car.

How much is a petrol car equivalent to a 10k leaf?

For clarity I am talking about people who are in the position to buy and use a second hand electric car (not arguing that for various reasons many aren't). 

There is just nothing in the 7 seater market for EV that saves me money at this stage and that is an indisputable fact.

The rest of my post explained why that £10k 2nd hand leaf is totally unsuitable - not big enough, missing 2 seats, range all used up just with my commute, can't do a 300 mile round trip without stopping at least 4 times.

For £10k I got a lot more car for my money than a Nissan Leaf in terms of size, capabilities, specification.

And there's choice, even forgetting the 7 seats there are just 17x EV's in my price / age / mileage range versus 140x 7 seaters or 1000+ large 5 seaters now on Autotrader.

No point saving money and then not actually being able to use the car for what I want. Take the journeys I do with the family uses 6-7 seats in the car - what do I do then? Hire another car? All my EV savings gone.

And then the 300 mile trip I do 1-2 times a month - I don't stop at all each way and it is already a 6am - 8:30pm day, add a few hours charging time and it is just not possible on a Leaf.

So lets say I stump up another £4.5k that I might save over 3 years of owning it - again on Autotrader I get a BMW i3, Zoe or Leaf, first 2 are tiny, so back to a Leaf, 32 of them, some of them have the 30kWh battery which is still not enough.

Oh and the bonus is that when I fill my car with 6 or 7 people, I effectively half the fuel consumption compared to a 5 seater car because I only need 1 car to make the journey instead of 2. And at that point it is working out cheaper than 2x EV could possibly achieve in terms of fuel and purchase costs.

Then there is the load carrying capability. I filled my 7 seater with the remains of a shed I dismantled - a Nissan Leaf with half the load space would have taken twice as many trips to the tip (2,000 litres vs 1,100 on the Leaf)

What I'm trying to get across is that there are still scenarios where an EV is not cost effective.