The big fat Electric Vehicle bashing thread.

DB1904

Petriix said:

DB1904 said:

ComicGeek said:

DB1904 said:

grumiofoundation said:

iwb100 said:

grumiofoundation said:

iwb100 said:

Herzlos said:

DB1904 said:

Herzlos said:

I don't mean travelling over 100 miles without stopping is extreme, just that for most people it's not really an issue as they can have a coffee/lunch/explore or whatever. 

I do get that EVs may not be suited to a once a year trek across the country and back (although many EV owners don't find it a problem), but I'm not sure it's that big a deal to that many people given the inconvenience is twice a year. It's also worth noting that many households have multiple cars, so many people have the option of using the other ICE car for the holiday road trip.


As for freedom, people can already live and visit where they want; they just tend to want to live close to work and shop close to home and so on.

I'm not convinced anyone can get 12p/mile out of an ICE car now.  50mpg at £1.50/l is 14p/mile

Explore a motorway services. Are you serious?

Be a bit more imaginative. You can charge places that aren't motorway services, so break road trips up by stopping at nice places whilst you charge. 

After 2 hours sat in a car then a short walk around a lake or beach or whatever will do everyone good. We usually do that when traveling with the kids anyway.

 But most people can’t be imaginative. If your journey is on a bank holiday down the M6 and M5 for example with your family and all and sundry are also on the road you aren’t going to get people taking detours. They need to get from Cumbria to Cornwall or wherever and they aren’t driving miles out of their way with their young kids in tow. So you need an infrastructure to support the weight of motorway traffic when the majority of it is EVs that allows people either far greater range than exists or simply has charging points in sufficient numbers to support the on road traffic in these sorts of peak scenarios. Service stations each need hundreds and hundreds of working charging points. I don’t think that’s contentious or even necessarily the full extent.

Once that happens I think majority EV ownership might become viable. But it’s an infrastructure issue. And as much as you now talk about ‘oh change your route and lifestyle to accommodate it’ that doesn’t work for most people and also doesn’t work as the number of EVs on the road increases. You aren’t going to want hundreds and hundreds of cars pottering off into Warwick cos they need a charge and it’s better to explore. It’s just backing up problems. People need ready charging on route. I think people can sacrifice charging taking half an hour. Over say 10 minutes to fill up. But they can’t be expected to queue for an hour for a charger then hang around another half hour. Doomed to failure without the infrastructure. 

Obviously that is true but the infrastructure wasn't there for petrol to replace horses. Why didn't that fail?


(I'm not arguing that infrastructure doesn't need improving - it does, and improvement is hit and miss).

Will hundreds of chargers actually be needed at each service station in the long term?
New electric cars have not dissimilar ranges to ICE vehicles. So surely electric cars will only need to charge as regularly* as cars fill up. But as you say takes longer if we use 30 minutes versus 10 minutes would mean 3x the number of rapid chargers needed as petrol pumps?  (Having not been through how many petrol pumps does a service station have 10? 20?) 

*will actually be lower than the number of petrol cars needing to fill up since many cars will charge overnight** and some will never/rarely need to use rapid chargers. 

**this infrastructure needs improving/a solution for those w.o. off-street parking - could argue is actually the bigger issue.

I suspect because the introduction of automobiles was very gradual and had time for the infrastructure to catch up. You now have 30 odd million cars on the road and growing….

I think the problem is bigger than you think. Currently on a long journey like that I’d probably fill up at the services after we’d stopped for a half hour lunch and toilet break. So get to services. Bob in for a sandwich, change and toilet the kids. Back into car, top up at station, which I think on a normal day is under 10 minutes, and then off.

That’s 40 minutes break.

I think you could achieve that in an EV only if there is a charger there and ready waiting for you. Which is obviously the challenge. 

Then you have the problem of what happens when you get where you are going. I’m not convinced that if we are staying with the in laws in rural Devon who don’t have ev charging will be happy for us to plug into their wall sockets…

This is the challenge for infrastructure…it’s fine now for early buyers. It becomes less fine unless the infrastructure improves in line with adoption. And we know already it isn’t. 

As I said I'm not arguing with the need for improved infrastructure (it is improving by the way), but I think you are exaggerating the problems with your claim that 'hundreds and hundreds' of chargers are needed at every service station, maybe I am missing something but I don't see why this many will actually be needed. 

Obviously there is not much anyone can do if the ability to charge a car exists cheaply but people don't take advantage (e.g outside 3-pin plug on a separate circuit costs a few hundred pounds - also useful for any other electric items one might use outside).

How many do you think will be needed to cope with weekend holiday traffic?

The furthest I've travelled on holiday in the UK is 220 miles - I wouldn't need to charge on the way for that, just charge when I get there. Same on the way back. If I'm travelling to see family then the furthest is a 160miles round trip - I don't even have to charge for that.

How many people actually travel those distances on a regular basis? If it's one day a year then building in a short stop isn't really much of an issue. I just don't believe that, at a time when there will be that many EVs on the road, a significant proportion of them will need to charge at exactly the same time.

I can certainly see charging stations providing bookable time slots for a premium rate in the future. Those who aren't in a hurry, or want to save money, will queue up for the cheaper ones.

And how many EV's have a Range in excess of 220 miles, how many will do north of England to the south coast on one charge?

Almost all current models have range greater than 220 miles. Almost no one needs to drive from the north of England to the south coast without charging. 

Newcastle to Bournemouth is 360 miles and your MG will do it on a single charge?

Petriix

Grumpy_chap said:

Well, I've given a credit for the repurposing potential of the battery in the scrap value in the assessment of whole life depreciation.  It is a bit of a guess as to how realistic that is.  Firstly, home storage battery is already a product that is decreasing in price.  Secondly, that battery removed from an end-of-life EV will need some treatment to make it suitable for repurposing.  In 15 years, that value may well be less than the £3k I allowed.  I doubt it will be more.  Who knows?

Currently 30kWh of domestic storage batteries would cost ~ £18k. A 15 year old 52.5kWh MG5 battery would still have 60% usable capacity, possibly with a bit of work to swap out the most degraded cells.

I find it hard to imagine a scenario where 30kWh of usable battery is worth less than £3k.

Petriix

DB1904 said:

Petriix said:

DB1904 said:

ComicGeek said:

DB1904 said:

grumiofoundation said:

iwb100 said:

grumiofoundation said:

iwb100 said:

Herzlos said:

DB1904 said:

Herzlos said:

I don't mean travelling over 100 miles without stopping is extreme, just that for most people it's not really an issue as they can have a coffee/lunch/explore or whatever. 

I do get that EVs may not be suited to a once a year trek across the country and back (although many EV owners don't find it a problem), but I'm not sure it's that big a deal to that many people given the inconvenience is twice a year. It's also worth noting that many households have multiple cars, so many people have the option of using the other ICE car for the holiday road trip.


As for freedom, people can already live and visit where they want; they just tend to want to live close to work and shop close to home and so on.

I'm not convinced anyone can get 12p/mile out of an ICE car now.  50mpg at £1.50/l is 14p/mile

Explore a motorway services. Are you serious?

Be a bit more imaginative. You can charge places that aren't motorway services, so break road trips up by stopping at nice places whilst you charge. 

After 2 hours sat in a car then a short walk around a lake or beach or whatever will do everyone good. We usually do that when traveling with the kids anyway.

 But most people can’t be imaginative. If your journey is on a bank holiday down the M6 and M5 for example with your family and all and sundry are also on the road you aren’t going to get people taking detours. They need to get from Cumbria to Cornwall or wherever and they aren’t driving miles out of their way with their young kids in tow. So you need an infrastructure to support the weight of motorway traffic when the majority of it is EVs that allows people either far greater range than exists or simply has charging points in sufficient numbers to support the on road traffic in these sorts of peak scenarios. Service stations each need hundreds and hundreds of working charging points. I don’t think that’s contentious or even necessarily the full extent.

Once that happens I think majority EV ownership might become viable. But it’s an infrastructure issue. And as much as you now talk about ‘oh change your route and lifestyle to accommodate it’ that doesn’t work for most people and also doesn’t work as the number of EVs on the road increases. You aren’t going to want hundreds and hundreds of cars pottering off into Warwick cos they need a charge and it’s better to explore. It’s just backing up problems. People need ready charging on route. I think people can sacrifice charging taking half an hour. Over say 10 minutes to fill up. But they can’t be expected to queue for an hour for a charger then hang around another half hour. Doomed to failure without the infrastructure. 

Obviously that is true but the infrastructure wasn't there for petrol to replace horses. Why didn't that fail?


(I'm not arguing that infrastructure doesn't need improving - it does, and improvement is hit and miss).

Will hundreds of chargers actually be needed at each service station in the long term?
New electric cars have not dissimilar ranges to ICE vehicles. So surely electric cars will only need to charge as regularly* as cars fill up. But as you say takes longer if we use 30 minutes versus 10 minutes would mean 3x the number of rapid chargers needed as petrol pumps?  (Having not been through how many petrol pumps does a service station have 10? 20?) 

*will actually be lower than the number of petrol cars needing to fill up since many cars will charge overnight** and some will never/rarely need to use rapid chargers. 

**this infrastructure needs improving/a solution for those w.o. off-street parking - could argue is actually the bigger issue.

I suspect because the introduction of automobiles was very gradual and had time for the infrastructure to catch up. You now have 30 odd million cars on the road and growing….

I think the problem is bigger than you think. Currently on a long journey like that I’d probably fill up at the services after we’d stopped for a half hour lunch and toilet break. So get to services. Bob in for a sandwich, change and toilet the kids. Back into car, top up at station, which I think on a normal day is under 10 minutes, and then off.

That’s 40 minutes break.

I think you could achieve that in an EV only if there is a charger there and ready waiting for you. Which is obviously the challenge. 

Then you have the problem of what happens when you get where you are going. I’m not convinced that if we are staying with the in laws in rural Devon who don’t have ev charging will be happy for us to plug into their wall sockets…

This is the challenge for infrastructure…it’s fine now for early buyers. It becomes less fine unless the infrastructure improves in line with adoption. And we know already it isn’t. 

As I said I'm not arguing with the need for improved infrastructure (it is improving by the way), but I think you are exaggerating the problems with your claim that 'hundreds and hundreds' of chargers are needed at every service station, maybe I am missing something but I don't see why this many will actually be needed. 

Obviously there is not much anyone can do if the ability to charge a car exists cheaply but people don't take advantage (e.g outside 3-pin plug on a separate circuit costs a few hundred pounds - also useful for any other electric items one might use outside).

How many do you think will be needed to cope with weekend holiday traffic?

The furthest I've travelled on holiday in the UK is 220 miles - I wouldn't need to charge on the way for that, just charge when I get there. Same on the way back. If I'm travelling to see family then the furthest is a 160miles round trip - I don't even have to charge for that.

How many people actually travel those distances on a regular basis? If it's one day a year then building in a short stop isn't really much of an issue. I just don't believe that, at a time when there will be that many EVs on the road, a significant proportion of them will need to charge at exactly the same time.

I can certainly see charging stations providing bookable time slots for a premium rate in the future. Those who aren't in a hurry, or want to save money, will queue up for the cheaper ones.

And how many EV's have a Range in excess of 220 miles, how many will do north of England to the south coast on one charge?

Almost all current models have range greater than 220 miles. Almost no one needs to drive from the north of England to the south coast without charging. 

Newcastle to Bournemouth is 360 miles and your MG will do it on a single charge?

No, that's ridiculous. But I wouldn't be driving from Newcastle to Bournemouth. I will, however be driving from Norwich to Cumbria later this year. That's about 300 miles. I'll be stopping overnight with family in Sheffield where I'll be able to fully charge before completing my journey. 

Why do you think people need to drive such extreme distances without stopping? 

ComicGeek

Petriix said:

DB1904 said:

Petriix said:

DB1904 said:

ComicGeek said:

DB1904 said:

grumiofoundation said:

iwb100 said:

grumiofoundation said:

iwb100 said:

Herzlos said:

DB1904 said:

Herzlos said:

I don't mean travelling over 100 miles without stopping is extreme, just that for most people it's not really an issue as they can have a coffee/lunch/explore or whatever. 

I do get that EVs may not be suited to a once a year trek across the country and back (although many EV owners don't find it a problem), but I'm not sure it's that big a deal to that many people given the inconvenience is twice a year. It's also worth noting that many households have multiple cars, so many people have the option of using the other ICE car for the holiday road trip.


As for freedom, people can already live and visit where they want; they just tend to want to live close to work and shop close to home and so on.

I'm not convinced anyone can get 12p/mile out of an ICE car now.  50mpg at £1.50/l is 14p/mile

Explore a motorway services. Are you serious?

Be a bit more imaginative. You can charge places that aren't motorway services, so break road trips up by stopping at nice places whilst you charge. 

After 2 hours sat in a car then a short walk around a lake or beach or whatever will do everyone good. We usually do that when traveling with the kids anyway.

 But most people can’t be imaginative. If your journey is on a bank holiday down the M6 and M5 for example with your family and all and sundry are also on the road you aren’t going to get people taking detours. They need to get from Cumbria to Cornwall or wherever and they aren’t driving miles out of their way with their young kids in tow. So you need an infrastructure to support the weight of motorway traffic when the majority of it is EVs that allows people either far greater range than exists or simply has charging points in sufficient numbers to support the on road traffic in these sorts of peak scenarios. Service stations each need hundreds and hundreds of working charging points. I don’t think that’s contentious or even necessarily the full extent.

Once that happens I think majority EV ownership might become viable. But it’s an infrastructure issue. And as much as you now talk about ‘oh change your route and lifestyle to accommodate it’ that doesn’t work for most people and also doesn’t work as the number of EVs on the road increases. You aren’t going to want hundreds and hundreds of cars pottering off into Warwick cos they need a charge and it’s better to explore. It’s just backing up problems. People need ready charging on route. I think people can sacrifice charging taking half an hour. Over say 10 minutes to fill up. But they can’t be expected to queue for an hour for a charger then hang around another half hour. Doomed to failure without the infrastructure. 

Obviously that is true but the infrastructure wasn't there for petrol to replace horses. Why didn't that fail?


(I'm not arguing that infrastructure doesn't need improving - it does, and improvement is hit and miss).

Will hundreds of chargers actually be needed at each service station in the long term?
New electric cars have not dissimilar ranges to ICE vehicles. So surely electric cars will only need to charge as regularly* as cars fill up. But as you say takes longer if we use 30 minutes versus 10 minutes would mean 3x the number of rapid chargers needed as petrol pumps?  (Having not been through how many petrol pumps does a service station have 10? 20?) 

*will actually be lower than the number of petrol cars needing to fill up since many cars will charge overnight** and some will never/rarely need to use rapid chargers. 

**this infrastructure needs improving/a solution for those w.o. off-street parking - could argue is actually the bigger issue.

I suspect because the introduction of automobiles was very gradual and had time for the infrastructure to catch up. You now have 30 odd million cars on the road and growing….

I think the problem is bigger than you think. Currently on a long journey like that I’d probably fill up at the services after we’d stopped for a half hour lunch and toilet break. So get to services. Bob in for a sandwich, change and toilet the kids. Back into car, top up at station, which I think on a normal day is under 10 minutes, and then off.

That’s 40 minutes break.

I think you could achieve that in an EV only if there is a charger there and ready waiting for you. Which is obviously the challenge. 

Then you have the problem of what happens when you get where you are going. I’m not convinced that if we are staying with the in laws in rural Devon who don’t have ev charging will be happy for us to plug into their wall sockets…

This is the challenge for infrastructure…it’s fine now for early buyers. It becomes less fine unless the infrastructure improves in line with adoption. And we know already it isn’t. 

As I said I'm not arguing with the need for improved infrastructure (it is improving by the way), but I think you are exaggerating the problems with your claim that 'hundreds and hundreds' of chargers are needed at every service station, maybe I am missing something but I don't see why this many will actually be needed. 

Obviously there is not much anyone can do if the ability to charge a car exists cheaply but people don't take advantage (e.g outside 3-pin plug on a separate circuit costs a few hundred pounds - also useful for any other electric items one might use outside).

How many do you think will be needed to cope with weekend holiday traffic?

The furthest I've travelled on holiday in the UK is 220 miles - I wouldn't need to charge on the way for that, just charge when I get there. Same on the way back. If I'm travelling to see family then the furthest is a 160miles round trip - I don't even have to charge for that.

How many people actually travel those distances on a regular basis? If it's one day a year then building in a short stop isn't really much of an issue. I just don't believe that, at a time when there will be that many EVs on the road, a significant proportion of them will need to charge at exactly the same time.

I can certainly see charging stations providing bookable time slots for a premium rate in the future. Those who aren't in a hurry, or want to save money, will queue up for the cheaper ones.

And how many EV's have a Range in excess of 220 miles, how many will do north of England to the south coast on one charge?

Almost all current models have range greater than 220 miles. Almost no one needs to drive from the north of England to the south coast without charging. 

Newcastle to Bournemouth is 360 miles and your MG will do it on a single charge?

Why do you think people need to drive such extreme distances without stopping? 

Exactly this - I can't do more than 2-3 hrs before I need to stop for food, drink and the toilet. I wouldn't be fully concentrating, and would probably end up with a migraine if I did longer than that. Probably wouldn't be able to do the 6 hr Newcastle-Bournemouth journey in a single day either.

180miles, then stopping for 30 mins to eat etc (while topping back up to 100%) - then another 180miles to destination. Would still leave me about 100 miles in the battery. I really don't see what the problem is with that, even though I would never actually need to do it myself. 

DB1904

ComicGeek said:

Petriix said:

DB1904 said:

Petriix said:

DB1904 said:

ComicGeek said:

DB1904 said:

grumiofoundation said:

iwb100 said:

grumiofoundation said:

iwb100 said:

Herzlos said:

DB1904 said:

Herzlos said:

I don't mean travelling over 100 miles without stopping is extreme, just that for most people it's not really an issue as they can have a coffee/lunch/explore or whatever. 

I do get that EVs may not be suited to a once a year trek across the country and back (although many EV owners don't find it a problem), but I'm not sure it's that big a deal to that many people given the inconvenience is twice a year. It's also worth noting that many households have multiple cars, so many people have the option of using the other ICE car for the holiday road trip.


As for freedom, people can already live and visit where they want; they just tend to want to live close to work and shop close to home and so on.

I'm not convinced anyone can get 12p/mile out of an ICE car now.  50mpg at £1.50/l is 14p/mile

Explore a motorway services. Are you serious?

Be a bit more imaginative. You can charge places that aren't motorway services, so break road trips up by stopping at nice places whilst you charge. 

After 2 hours sat in a car then a short walk around a lake or beach or whatever will do everyone good. We usually do that when traveling with the kids anyway.

 But most people can’t be imaginative. If your journey is on a bank holiday down the M6 and M5 for example with your family and all and sundry are also on the road you aren’t going to get people taking detours. They need to get from Cumbria to Cornwall or wherever and they aren’t driving miles out of their way with their young kids in tow. So you need an infrastructure to support the weight of motorway traffic when the majority of it is EVs that allows people either far greater range than exists or simply has charging points in sufficient numbers to support the on road traffic in these sorts of peak scenarios. Service stations each need hundreds and hundreds of working charging points. I don’t think that’s contentious or even necessarily the full extent.

Once that happens I think majority EV ownership might become viable. But it’s an infrastructure issue. And as much as you now talk about ‘oh change your route and lifestyle to accommodate it’ that doesn’t work for most people and also doesn’t work as the number of EVs on the road increases. You aren’t going to want hundreds and hundreds of cars pottering off into Warwick cos they need a charge and it’s better to explore. It’s just backing up problems. People need ready charging on route. I think people can sacrifice charging taking half an hour. Over say 10 minutes to fill up. But they can’t be expected to queue for an hour for a charger then hang around another half hour. Doomed to failure without the infrastructure. 

Obviously that is true but the infrastructure wasn't there for petrol to replace horses. Why didn't that fail?


(I'm not arguing that infrastructure doesn't need improving - it does, and improvement is hit and miss).

Will hundreds of chargers actually be needed at each service station in the long term?
New electric cars have not dissimilar ranges to ICE vehicles. So surely electric cars will only need to charge as regularly* as cars fill up. But as you say takes longer if we use 30 minutes versus 10 minutes would mean 3x the number of rapid chargers needed as petrol pumps?  (Having not been through how many petrol pumps does a service station have 10? 20?) 

*will actually be lower than the number of petrol cars needing to fill up since many cars will charge overnight** and some will never/rarely need to use rapid chargers. 

**this infrastructure needs improving/a solution for those w.o. off-street parking - could argue is actually the bigger issue.

I suspect because the introduction of automobiles was very gradual and had time for the infrastructure to catch up. You now have 30 odd million cars on the road and growing….

I think the problem is bigger than you think. Currently on a long journey like that I’d probably fill up at the services after we’d stopped for a half hour lunch and toilet break. So get to services. Bob in for a sandwich, change and toilet the kids. Back into car, top up at station, which I think on a normal day is under 10 minutes, and then off.

That’s 40 minutes break.

I think you could achieve that in an EV only if there is a charger there and ready waiting for you. Which is obviously the challenge. 

Then you have the problem of what happens when you get where you are going. I’m not convinced that if we are staying with the in laws in rural Devon who don’t have ev charging will be happy for us to plug into their wall sockets…

This is the challenge for infrastructure…it’s fine now for early buyers. It becomes less fine unless the infrastructure improves in line with adoption. And we know already it isn’t. 

As I said I'm not arguing with the need for improved infrastructure (it is improving by the way), but I think you are exaggerating the problems with your claim that 'hundreds and hundreds' of chargers are needed at every service station, maybe I am missing something but I don't see why this many will actually be needed. 

Obviously there is not much anyone can do if the ability to charge a car exists cheaply but people don't take advantage (e.g outside 3-pin plug on a separate circuit costs a few hundred pounds - also useful for any other electric items one might use outside).

How many do you think will be needed to cope with weekend holiday traffic?

The furthest I've travelled on holiday in the UK is 220 miles - I wouldn't need to charge on the way for that, just charge when I get there. Same on the way back. If I'm travelling to see family then the furthest is a 160miles round trip - I don't even have to charge for that.

How many people actually travel those distances on a regular basis? If it's one day a year then building in a short stop isn't really much of an issue. I just don't believe that, at a time when there will be that many EVs on the road, a significant proportion of them will need to charge at exactly the same time.

I can certainly see charging stations providing bookable time slots for a premium rate in the future. Those who aren't in a hurry, or want to save money, will queue up for the cheaper ones.

And how many EV's have a Range in excess of 220 miles, how many will do north of England to the south coast on one charge?

Almost all current models have range greater than 220 miles. Almost no one needs to drive from the north of England to the south coast without charging. 

Newcastle to Bournemouth is 360 miles and your MG will do it on a single charge?

Why do you think people need to drive such extreme distances without stopping? 

Exactly this - I can't do more than 2-3 hrs before I need to stop for food, drink and the toilet. I wouldn't be fully concentrating, and would probably end up with a migraine if I did longer than that. Probably wouldn't be able to do the 6 hr Newcastle-Bournemouth journey in a single day either.

180miles, then stopping for 30 mins to eat etc (while topping back up to 100%) - then another 180miles to destination. Would still leave me about 100 miles in the battery. I really don't see what the problem is with that, even though I would never actually need to do it myself. 

The problem is you can't guarantee a charger will be available for that planned stop.

Grumpy_chap

Petriix said:

No, that's ridiculous. But I wouldn't be driving from Newcastle to Bournemouth. I will, however be driving from Norwich to Cumbria later this year. That's about 300 miles. I'll be stopping overnight with family in Sheffield where I'll be able to fully charge before completing my journey. 

Why do you think people need to drive such extreme distances without stopping? 

Most people would not entertain an overnight stop to complete a 300 mile journey.

Taking an "EV's are perfect in everyway" stance is not actually helpful to promoting the case for EV's.

FWIW, I think a 300 mile journey in an EV would be far easier than an overnight stop as many EV's can do that with only one relatively short charge while taking on food and water for the car driver and passengers.

Petriix said:

Almost all current models have range greater than 220 miles. 

Not according to this article:
"You can currently expect between 100 and 300 miles of range from a fully charged electric car, depending on the model."
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/choosing/electric-vehicle-range-how-far-can-i-drive-in-an-ev/

Petriix said:

Currently 30kWh of domestic storage batteries would cost ~ £18k. A 15 year old 52.5kWh MG5 battery would still have 60% usable capacity, possibly with a bit of work to swap out the most degraded cells.

I find it hard to imagine a scenario where 30kWh of usable battery is worth less than £3k.

I can quite easily. 

Consumers will compare buying the repurposed battery (say 30kWh) vs a brand new battery which is "from £2.5k" from this website (which conveniently does not give a capacity):
https://www.eonenergy.com/solar-battery-storage.html
I accept that, without storage capacity, that is not the most intelligent comparison but in many cases "the public" will only see the headline.

This article is more balanced and has Tesla Powerwall at £6k for 13 kWh:
https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/solar-panels/article/solar-panels/solar-panel-battery-storage-a2AfJ0s5tCyT

Most people won't need more domestic storage than that, so the value of the 30 kWh over 13 kWh becomes diminishing returns.  Plus, if the scrap car is at £3k, someone then has to recover the battery, convert it into a safe an usable format for home battery storage, operate their business overhead, marketing, sales, installation etc.  Plus pay the costs to scrap the remainder of the now useless car.  Plus the risk of some cars paying £3k but the battery really is deceased.  Applying typical consumer retail business models, for a scrap battery to be obtained at £3k and sell for £9k would be the sort of target business need to operate.  It is becoming quite a niche (and educated) customer that will pay £9k for a repurposed battery compared to £6k for a brand new Tesla Powerwall (which is one of the more expensive products in the market place).

Herzlos

I don't think anyone on here has claimed EVs are perfect, they've largely been pointing out that the perceived issues aren't actually as bad as claimed. 

I don't have one because there isn't one I can afford that can tow my 1500kg caravan, and I can't justify running 2 cars. They also aren't great for people who don't have access to charging and do huge mileages. Nor have they come down in price to suit most budgets, beyond a small number of early models with low ranges.

Petriix

Tesla powerwalls are not £6k, nor can you actually get hold of one in the current market. The most cost effective domestic battery is the new Givenergy 9.5kWh which is coming in June or July. There are already companies like Powervault repurposing EV batteries but it's an underexploited market at the moment. 

ComicGeek

DB1904 said:

ComicGeek said:

Petriix said:

DB1904 said:

Petriix said:

DB1904 said:

ComicGeek said:

DB1904 said:

grumiofoundation said:

iwb100 said:

grumiofoundation said:

iwb100 said:

Herzlos said:

DB1904 said:

Herzlos said:

I don't mean travelling over 100 miles without stopping is extreme, just that for most people it's not really an issue as they can have a coffee/lunch/explore or whatever. 

I do get that EVs may not be suited to a once a year trek across the country and back (although many EV owners don't find it a problem), but I'm not sure it's that big a deal to that many people given the inconvenience is twice a year. It's also worth noting that many households have multiple cars, so many people have the option of using the other ICE car for the holiday road trip.


As for freedom, people can already live and visit where they want; they just tend to want to live close to work and shop close to home and so on.

I'm not convinced anyone can get 12p/mile out of an ICE car now.  50mpg at £1.50/l is 14p/mile

Explore a motorway services. Are you serious?

Be a bit more imaginative. You can charge places that aren't motorway services, so break road trips up by stopping at nice places whilst you charge. 

After 2 hours sat in a car then a short walk around a lake or beach or whatever will do everyone good. We usually do that when traveling with the kids anyway.

 But most people can’t be imaginative. If your journey is on a bank holiday down the M6 and M5 for example with your family and all and sundry are also on the road you aren’t going to get people taking detours. They need to get from Cumbria to Cornwall or wherever and they aren’t driving miles out of their way with their young kids in tow. So you need an infrastructure to support the weight of motorway traffic when the majority of it is EVs that allows people either far greater range than exists or simply has charging points in sufficient numbers to support the on road traffic in these sorts of peak scenarios. Service stations each need hundreds and hundreds of working charging points. I don’t think that’s contentious or even necessarily the full extent.

Once that happens I think majority EV ownership might become viable. But it’s an infrastructure issue. And as much as you now talk about ‘oh change your route and lifestyle to accommodate it’ that doesn’t work for most people and also doesn’t work as the number of EVs on the road increases. You aren’t going to want hundreds and hundreds of cars pottering off into Warwick cos they need a charge and it’s better to explore. It’s just backing up problems. People need ready charging on route. I think people can sacrifice charging taking half an hour. Over say 10 minutes to fill up. But they can’t be expected to queue for an hour for a charger then hang around another half hour. Doomed to failure without the infrastructure. 

Obviously that is true but the infrastructure wasn't there for petrol to replace horses. Why didn't that fail?


(I'm not arguing that infrastructure doesn't need improving - it does, and improvement is hit and miss).

Will hundreds of chargers actually be needed at each service station in the long term?
New electric cars have not dissimilar ranges to ICE vehicles. So surely electric cars will only need to charge as regularly* as cars fill up. But as you say takes longer if we use 30 minutes versus 10 minutes would mean 3x the number of rapid chargers needed as petrol pumps?  (Having not been through how many petrol pumps does a service station have 10? 20?) 

*will actually be lower than the number of petrol cars needing to fill up since many cars will charge overnight** and some will never/rarely need to use rapid chargers. 

**this infrastructure needs improving/a solution for those w.o. off-street parking - could argue is actually the bigger issue.

I suspect because the introduction of automobiles was very gradual and had time for the infrastructure to catch up. You now have 30 odd million cars on the road and growing….

I think the problem is bigger than you think. Currently on a long journey like that I’d probably fill up at the services after we’d stopped for a half hour lunch and toilet break. So get to services. Bob in for a sandwich, change and toilet the kids. Back into car, top up at station, which I think on a normal day is under 10 minutes, and then off.

That’s 40 minutes break.

I think you could achieve that in an EV only if there is a charger there and ready waiting for you. Which is obviously the challenge. 

Then you have the problem of what happens when you get where you are going. I’m not convinced that if we are staying with the in laws in rural Devon who don’t have ev charging will be happy for us to plug into their wall sockets…

This is the challenge for infrastructure…it’s fine now for early buyers. It becomes less fine unless the infrastructure improves in line with adoption. And we know already it isn’t. 

As I said I'm not arguing with the need for improved infrastructure (it is improving by the way), but I think you are exaggerating the problems with your claim that 'hundreds and hundreds' of chargers are needed at every service station, maybe I am missing something but I don't see why this many will actually be needed. 

Obviously there is not much anyone can do if the ability to charge a car exists cheaply but people don't take advantage (e.g outside 3-pin plug on a separate circuit costs a few hundred pounds - also useful for any other electric items one might use outside).

How many do you think will be needed to cope with weekend holiday traffic?

The furthest I've travelled on holiday in the UK is 220 miles - I wouldn't need to charge on the way for that, just charge when I get there. Same on the way back. If I'm travelling to see family then the furthest is a 160miles round trip - I don't even have to charge for that.

How many people actually travel those distances on a regular basis? If it's one day a year then building in a short stop isn't really much of an issue. I just don't believe that, at a time when there will be that many EVs on the road, a significant proportion of them will need to charge at exactly the same time.

I can certainly see charging stations providing bookable time slots for a premium rate in the future. Those who aren't in a hurry, or want to save money, will queue up for the cheaper ones.

And how many EV's have a Range in excess of 220 miles, how many will do north of England to the south coast on one charge?

Almost all current models have range greater than 220 miles. Almost no one needs to drive from the north of England to the south coast without charging. 

Newcastle to Bournemouth is 360 miles and your MG will do it on a single charge?

Why do you think people need to drive such extreme distances without stopping? 

Exactly this - I can't do more than 2-3 hrs before I need to stop for food, drink and the toilet. I wouldn't be fully concentrating, and would probably end up with a migraine if I did longer than that. Probably wouldn't be able to do the 6 hr Newcastle-Bournemouth journey in a single day either.

180miles, then stopping for 30 mins to eat etc (while topping back up to 100%) - then another 180miles to destination. Would still leave me about 100 miles in the battery. I really don't see what the problem is with that, even though I would never actually need to do it myself. 

The problem is you can't guarantee a charger will be available for that planned stop.

A few weeks ago when I drove from Suffolk to the Cotswolds there wasn't any petrol available around home or at my destination - there were long queues at petrol stations along the way. I don't think you can guarantee always getting petrol either.

I had about 10 different charging stations within 15 minutes of my chosen stop - even if one point was very busy/broken/closed there were a number of others close by. Apps available that provide updates on charge points, and that will improve. In the past I've decided to carry onto the next petrol station if the first is too busy, no difference here.

If I'm doing 1 or 2 journeys a year that require a bit more planning then it really doesn't bother me.

But I'm happy if lots of people don't move across to EVs yet as I will probably get the tax breaks for longer and the charging stations will remain quiet! 

Benny2020

There isn't enough raw materials for everyone to have an EV, Nickel in particularly short supply.