UC LCWRA appeal

Spoonie_Turtle

tifo said:

In terms of wheelchair, … . But i've not thought about it and to be honest it would limit the things I do in my usual day because of access. A walking stick is not viable because with severe and moderate gout I cannot walk.

Sorry, just picking up on this again - not in context of benefits - but if you cannot walk then surely limited access with wheels would be better than being trapped without.  For most of us wheelchairs users, although inaccessibility IS a huge problem, our wheels give us great freedom.

[Although I recognise getting any form of mobility aid is not simple, and to get a suitable one often requires a level of financial privilege because NHS provision tends to be somewhere between woeful and non-existent.]  But of course if you were to consider trying to acquire something suitable and would like advice, it would definitely need its own separate thread

/End off-topic.

HillStreetBlues

Muttleythefrog said:

. You should report to the DWP any improvement or deterioration in your condition and this would normally trigger a reassessment of entitlement to make a new decision if they felt such a change merited it - there is some indication your eye condition might have improved and I think you need to be careful in deciding any next steps especially since you are wanting to argue to DWP that you are entitled to LCWRA despite improvement in condition when they currently consider you have LCW. Some tailored advice might be necessary and people have given pointers for that.

I would disagree with that, the state of the condition doesn't matter.
What does matter is does the current descriptions match what the award states (either higher or lower)  and this change would bring about a change in the award.
E.G. if a person does get LCWRA  then the only notification to the DWP  would be if it takes them out of the group.

Muttleythefrog

HillStreetBlues said:

Muttleythefrog said:

. You should report to the DWP any improvement or deterioration in your condition and this would normally trigger a reassessment of entitlement to make a new decision if they felt such a change merited it - there is some indication your eye condition might have improved and I think you need to be careful in deciding any next steps especially since you are wanting to argue to DWP that you are entitled to LCWRA despite improvement in condition when they currently consider you have LCW. Some tailored advice might be necessary and people have given pointers for that.

I would disagree with that, the state of the condition doesn't matter.
What does matter is does the current descriptions match what the award states (either higher or lower)  and this change would bring about a change in the award.
E.G. if a person does get LCWRA  then the only notification to the DWP  would be if it takes them out of the group.

Surely that would be for the DWP to determine not the claimant and bear in mind this particular claimant doesn't agree with the current award so by default they believe the 'current descriptions' mismatches the award past and present - they believe they're entitled to LCWRA rather than LCW but are reporting here improved eye condition. Hence my advice to be careful (of any next steps).

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/employment-and-support-allowance/while-youre-getting-esa/esa-reporting-changes/

If your health condition changes
The DWP needs to know about changes to do with your condition. For example, if it:

• gets better

• gets worse

• changes to another condition

This might affect whether you should be in the support group or the work-related activity group.

Alice_Holt

A useful information source of information about the level of disability required by specific LCWRA descriptors is the WCA Handbook (for DWP DM's and assessors, but available online through a google search ).

Which states:

"Mobilising unaided by another person with or without a walking stick, manual wheelchair or other aid if such aid is normally, or could reasonably be, worn or used
Cannot either (i) mobilise more than 50 metres on level ground without stopping in order to avoid significant discomfort or exhaustion or
 (ii) repeatedly mobilise 50 metres within a reasonable timescale because of significant discomfort or exhaustion

This illustrates a severe level of disability relating to the lower limbs and often upper limbs or those with very severe cardiorespiratory problems or conditions which result in poor exercise tolerance. (Where use of aids is applicable – see above and section 3.2.1 and 3.2.2).The upper limb restriction may relate to severe loss of power in the upper limbs or severe restriction of movement of joints such as the elbows, shoulders and wrists resulting in the person being unable to perform the movements required to propel a wheelchair or use other aids normally used to assist in walking where these aids are normally or may be reasonably used. This restriction may be as a result of joint deformity or pain.

Consideration of the diagnosis, medical treatment and functional effects must be obtained. At Filework, this may involve requesting further medical evidence (if valid consent is held) from a practitioner involved in the claimant’s care. The descriptor relates to the ability to independently move useful distances by any of the means listed above where the guidance on aids and appliances is followed. If they are unable to walk or move on level ground to the degree stated, it would not be considered reasonable to expect the claimant to participate in work-related activity, because of their severe mobility restriction.

This LCWRA category could, for example, apply to a claimant with quadriplegia, who has upper and lower limb weakness, and therefore cannot walk or manually propel a wheelchair. A claimant who was paraplegic, had normal upper limb function and no other conditions such as cardiorespiratory compromise or severe fatigue, should be able to propel a manual wheelchair and therefore may not meet criteria for this LCWRA category."

And

Coping with social engagement, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder
Engagement in social contact is always precluded due to difficulty relating to others or significant distress experienced by the individual

This LCWRA descriptor reflects severe restriction of the ability to engage in almost any form of face-to-face social contact. I ESA Regs Sch 3 Activity 13 (and Sch 2 Activity 16a, as it is coapplied) or UC Regs 2013, Schedule 6 Activity 16a and Schedule 7, Activity 13 could therefore apply to a claimant whose condition is constant and continuing in its disabling effects, for the purposes of social engagement, albeit with short intermittent breaks in that being the case 

This descriptor may apply where there is extreme anxiety or other disorders of mental function where communication with others is impacted such as those with autistic spectrum disorder, psychosis, cognitive impairment, depression, behavioural or personality disorders.

This descriptor may apply to a person who rarely interacts with familiar people but may do so on exceptional / rare occasions. For example a person who is socially isolated, is unable to interact with unfamiliar people but might open the bedroom door to allow a family member to deliver tea on a daily basis or a person who is socially isolated, is unable to engage with unfamiliar people, and only engages with their regular CPN maybe once a week.

Evidence should confirm severe anxiety or a severe communication disorder. Medication/level of input should be consistent with a severe problem"


This may be helpful for forumites reading this thread.

HillStreetBlues

Muttleythefrog said:

Surely that would be for the DWP to determine not the claimant and bear in mind this particular claimant doesn't agree with the current award so by default they believe the 'current descriptions' mismatches the award past and present - they believe they're entitled to LCWRA rather than LCW but are reporting here improved eye condition. Hence my advice to be careful (of any next steps).

The DWP does state Changes can include changes to your health condition
https://www.gov.uk/universal-credit/changes-of-circumstances

I read that as, if the change of your heath condition affects the claim, then you need to inform them, if it doesn't then you don't.

So if the OP  was put in LCWRA  because they were unable to walk 50m (and not able use a  wheelchair) and the reason was it was to painful to walk, then  even if the OP totally eyes cleared up,  there us no need to inform the DWP as the reason for the award is still the same.

poppy12345

Muttleythefrog said:

HillStreetBlues said:

Muttleythefrog said:

. You should report to the DWP any improvement or deterioration in your condition and this would normally trigger a reassessment of entitlement to make a new decision if they felt such a change merited it - there is some indication your eye condition might have improved and I think you need to be careful in deciding any next steps especially since you are wanting to argue to DWP that you are entitled to LCWRA despite improvement in condition when they currently consider you have LCW. Some tailored advice might be necessary and people have given pointers for that.

I would disagree with that, the state of the condition doesn't matter.
What does matter is does the current descriptions match what the award states (either higher or lower)  and this change would bring about a change in the award.
E.G. if a person does get LCWRA  then the only notification to the DWP  would be if it takes them out of the group.

Surely that would be for the DWP to determine not the claimant and bear in mind this particular claimant doesn't agree with the current award so by default they believe the 'current descriptions' mismatches the award past and present - they believe they're entitled to LCWRA rather than LCW but are reporting here improved eye condition. Hence my advice to be careful (of any next steps).

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/employment-and-support-allowance/while-youre-getting-esa/esa-reporting-changes/

If your health condition changes
The DWP needs to know about changes to do with your condition. For example, if it:

• gets better

• gets worse

• changes to another condition

This might affect whether you should be in the support group or the work-related activity group.

All changes must be reported is very misleading! This is why we sometimes get people asking "my medication has changed, do i need to inform DWP" or I now have a diagnosis, do i need to inform them. So all changes do not need to be reported. Before doing anything a claimant should always get expert advice.

Spoonie_Turtle

Muttleythefrog said:

HillStreetBlues said:

Muttleythefrog said:

. You should report to the DWP any improvement or deterioration in your condition and this would normally trigger a reassessment of entitlement to make a new decision if they felt such a change merited it - there is some indication your eye condition might have improved and I think you need to be careful in deciding any next steps especially since you are wanting to argue to DWP that you are entitled to LCWRA despite improvement in condition when they currently consider you have LCW. Some tailored advice might be necessary and people have given pointers for that.

I would disagree with that, the state of the condition doesn't matter.
What does matter is does the current descriptions match what the award states (either higher or lower)  and this change would bring about a change in the award.
E.G. if a person does get LCWRA  then the only notification to the DWP  would be if it takes them out of the group.

Surely that would be for the DWP to determine not the claimant and bear in mind this particular claimant doesn't agree with the current award so by default they believe the 'current descriptions' mismatches the award past and present - they believe they're entitled to LCWRA rather than LCW but are reporting here improved eye condition. Hence my advice to be careful (of any next steps).

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/employment-and-support-allowance/while-youre-getting-esa/esa-reporting-changes/

If your health condition changes
The DWP needs to know about changes to do with your condition. For example, if it:

• gets better

• gets worse

• changes to another condition

This might affect whether you should be in the support group or the work-related activity group.

We have had people post about reporting a worsening of condition when they're already getting the highest awards of the relevant benefit, which would at best result in a stressful reassessment and no change (because they cannot get a higher award) and at worst go through a stressful reassessment, lose their whole award and have to fight to get it reinstated, when the reporting was entirely unnecessary.

Also regarding improvement, it needs to be a sustained improvement that overall affects how they are for the majority of the time.  Many people have fluctuating conditions so might have a few better months - which might prompt someone to think they should report it - but still meet the same criteria overall because the improvement doesn't last for most of the year.  So I am of the opinion that people should certainly seek advice before reporting any significant change, if they don't fully understand how the specific benefits are assessed.

[These are general comments on the matter of when/whether changes need to be reported, not particular to the context of this specific thread.]

Muttleythefrog

HillStreetBlues said:

Muttleythefrog said:

Surely that would be for the DWP to determine not the claimant and bear in mind this particular claimant doesn't agree with the current award so by default they believe the 'current descriptions' mismatches the award past and present - they believe they're entitled to LCWRA rather than LCW but are reporting here improved eye condition. Hence my advice to be careful (of any next steps).

The DWP does state Changes can include changes to your health condition
https://www.gov.uk/universal-credit/changes-of-circumstances

I read that as, if the change of your heath condition affects the claim, then you need to inform them, if it doesn't then you don't.

So if the OP  was put in LCWRA  because they were unable to walk 50m (and not able use a  wheelchair) and the reason was it was to painful to walk, then  even if the OP totally eyes cleared up,  there us no need to inform the DWP as the reason for the award is still the same.

Yes this is my understanding too.... I mean if your claim relates to physical problems and you've been diagnosed as suffering depression then there may be no need to inform. I assume when organisations like CAB (and me) refer to your condition they mean relevant to your claim. In this case I understand the eye condition was/would be a factor in the claimed disablements although would have to see precisely why the tribunal determined the LCW non functional descriptor in question as there are other conditions suffered like gout.

Muttleythefrog

poppy12345 said:

Muttleythefrog said:

HillStreetBlues said:

Muttleythefrog said:

. You should report to the DWP any improvement or deterioration in your condition and this would normally trigger a reassessment of entitlement to make a new decision if they felt such a change merited it - there is some indication your eye condition might have improved and I think you need to be careful in deciding any next steps especially since you are wanting to argue to DWP that you are entitled to LCWRA despite improvement in condition when they currently consider you have LCW. Some tailored advice might be necessary and people have given pointers for that.

I would disagree with that, the state of the condition doesn't matter.
What does matter is does the current descriptions match what the award states (either higher or lower)  and this change would bring about a change in the award.
E.G. if a person does get LCWRA  then the only notification to the DWP  would be if it takes them out of the group.

Surely that would be for the DWP to determine not the claimant and bear in mind this particular claimant doesn't agree with the current award so by default they believe the 'current descriptions' mismatches the award past and present - they believe they're entitled to LCWRA rather than LCW but are reporting here improved eye condition. Hence my advice to be careful (of any next steps).

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/employment-and-support-allowance/while-youre-getting-esa/esa-reporting-changes/

If your health condition changes
The DWP needs to know about changes to do with your condition. For example, if it:

• gets better

• gets worse

• changes to another condition

This might affect whether you should be in the support group or the work-related activity group.

All changes must be reported is very misleading! This is why we sometimes get people asking "my medication has changed, do i need to inform DWP" or I now have a diagnosis, do i need to inform them. So all changes do not need to be reported. Before doing anything a claimant should always get expert advice.

poppy12345 said:

Muttleythefrog said:

HillStreetBlues said:

Muttleythefrog said:

. You should report to the DWP any improvement or deterioration in your condition and this would normally trigger a reassessment of entitlement to make a new decision if they felt such a change merited it - there is some indication your eye condition might have improved and I think you need to be careful in deciding any next steps especially since you are wanting to argue to DWP that you are entitled to LCWRA despite improvement in condition when they currently consider you have LCW. Some tailored advice might be necessary and people have given pointers for that.

I would disagree with that, the state of the condition doesn't matter.
What does matter is does the current descriptions match what the award states (either higher or lower)  and this change would bring about a change in the award.
E.G. if a person does get LCWRA  then the only notification to the DWP  would be if it takes them out of the group.

Surely that would be for the DWP to determine not the claimant and bear in mind this particular claimant doesn't agree with the current award so by default they believe the 'current descriptions' mismatches the award past and present - they believe they're entitled to LCWRA rather than LCW but are reporting here improved eye condition. Hence my advice to be careful (of any next steps).

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/employment-and-support-allowance/while-youre-getting-esa/esa-reporting-changes/

If your health condition changes
The DWP needs to know about changes to do with your condition. For example, if it:

• gets better

• gets worse

• changes to another condition

This might affect whether you should be in the support group or the work-related activity group.

All changes must be reported is very misleading! This is why we sometimes get people asking "my medication has changed, do i need to inform DWP" or I now have a diagnosis, do i need to inform them. So all changes do not need to be reported. Before doing anything a claimant should always get expert advice.

poppy12345 said:

Muttleythefrog said:

HillStreetBlues said:

Muttleythefrog said:

. You should report to the DWP any improvement or deterioration in your condition and this would normally trigger a reassessment of entitlement to make a new decision if they felt such a change merited it - there is some indication your eye condition might have improved and I think you need to be careful in deciding any next steps especially since you are wanting to argue to DWP that you are entitled to LCWRA despite improvement in condition when they currently consider you have LCW. Some tailored advice might be necessary and people have given pointers for that.

I would disagree with that, the state of the condition doesn't matter.
What does matter is does the current descriptions match what the award states (either higher or lower)  and this change would bring about a change in the award.
E.G. if a person does get LCWRA  then the only notification to the DWP  would be if it takes them out of the group.

Surely that would be for the DWP to determine not the claimant and bear in mind this particular claimant doesn't agree with the current award so by default they believe the 'current descriptions' mismatches the award past and present - they believe they're entitled to LCWRA rather than LCW but are reporting here improved eye condition. Hence my advice to be careful (of any next steps).

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/employment-and-support-allowance/while-youre-getting-esa/esa-reporting-changes/

If your health condition changes
The DWP needs to know about changes to do with your condition. For example, if it:

• gets better

• gets worse

• changes to another condition

This might affect whether you should be in the support group or the work-related activity group.

All changes must be reported is very misleading! 

I would agree.... but I don't think anyone is saying that (although CAB using language like changes to another condition may not be helpful). If that's interpreted from anything I've said or quoted then people should  revise - I'm saying any improvement or deterioration to the relevant condition and I do think that should be reported as CAB advise. My medication for a condition unrelated to my claim has been altered but clearly that would not need reporting. Specifically for this claimant I'm referring to the eye condition which they report improving rather than things like the variability of the gout... and yes.... definitely they should seek expert advice before taking any further steps in relation to this claim (given they disagree with the current award and have a changed condition that seems relevant).

Muttleythefrog

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Muttleythefrog said:

HillStreetBlues said:

Muttleythefrog said:

. You should report to the DWP any improvement or deterioration in your condition and this would normally trigger a reassessment of entitlement to make a new decision if they felt such a change merited it - there is some indication your eye condition might have improved and I think you need to be careful in deciding any next steps especially since you are wanting to argue to DWP that you are entitled to LCWRA despite improvement in condition when they currently consider you have LCW. Some tailored advice might be necessary and people have given pointers for that.

I would disagree with that, the state of the condition doesn't matter.
What does matter is does the current descriptions match what the award states (either higher or lower)  and this change would bring about a change in the award.
E.G. if a person does get LCWRA  then the only notification to the DWP  would be if it takes them out of the group.

Surely that would be for the DWP to determine not the claimant and bear in mind this particular claimant doesn't agree with the current award so by default they believe the 'current descriptions' mismatches the award past and present - they believe they're entitled to LCWRA rather than LCW but are reporting here improved eye condition. Hence my advice to be careful (of any next steps).

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/employment-and-support-allowance/while-youre-getting-esa/esa-reporting-changes/

If your health condition changes
The DWP needs to know about changes to do with your condition. For example, if it:

• gets better

• gets worse

• changes to another condition

This might affect whether you should be in the support group or the work-related activity group.

We have had people post about reporting a worsening of condition when they're already getting the highest awards of the relevant benefit, which would at best result in a stressful reassessment and no change (because they cannot get a higher award) and at worst go through a stressful reassessment, lose their whole award and have to fight to get it reinstated, when the reporting was entirely unnecessary.

Also regarding improvement, it needs to be a sustained improvement that overall affects how they are for the majority of the time.  Many people have fluctuating conditions so might have a few better months - which might prompt someone to think they should report it - but still meet the same criteria overall because the improvement doesn't last for most of the year.  So I am of the opinion that people should certainly seek advice before reporting any significant change, if they don't fully understand how the specific benefits are assessed.

[These are general comments on the matter of when/whether changes need to be reported, not particular to the context of this specific thread.]

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Muttleythefrog said:

HillStreetBlues said:

Muttleythefrog said:

. You should report to the DWP any improvement or deterioration in your condition and this would normally trigger a reassessment of entitlement to make a new decision if they felt such a change merited it - there is some indication your eye condition might have improved and I think you need to be careful in deciding any next steps especially since you are wanting to argue to DWP that you are entitled to LCWRA despite improvement in condition when they currently consider you have LCW. Some tailored advice might be necessary and people have given pointers for that.

I would disagree with that, the state of the condition doesn't matter.
What does matter is does the current descriptions match what the award states (either higher or lower)  and this change would bring about a change in the award.
E.G. if a person does get LCWRA  then the only notification to the DWP  would be if it takes them out of the group.

Surely that would be for the DWP to determine not the claimant and bear in mind this particular claimant doesn't agree with the current award so by default they believe the 'current descriptions' mismatches the award past and present - they believe they're entitled to LCWRA rather than LCW but are reporting here improved eye condition. Hence my advice to be careful (of any next steps).

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/employment-and-support-allowance/while-youre-getting-esa/esa-reporting-changes/

If your health condition changes
The DWP needs to know about changes to do with your condition. For example, if it:

• gets better

• gets worse

• changes to another condition

This might affect whether you should be in the support group or the work-related activity group.

We have had people post about reporting a worsening of condition when they're already getting the highest awards of the relevant benefit, which would at best result in a stressful reassessment and no change (because they cannot get a higher award) and at worst go through a stressful reassessment, lose their whole award and have to fight to get it reinstated, when the reporting was entirely unnecessary.

Also regarding improvement, it needs to be a sustained improvement that overall affects how they are for the majority of the time.  Many people have fluctuating conditions so might have a few better months - which might prompt someone to think they should report it - but still meet the same criteria overall because the improvement doesn't last for most of the year.  So I am of the opinion that people should certainly seek advice before reporting any significant change, if they don't fully understand how the specific benefits are assessed.

[These are general comments on the matter of when/whether changes need to be reported, not particular to the context of this specific thread.]

Yes I agree although I would note that I do think these claims are a bit of a game and I am one of those claimants (for PIP) who has challenged awards (rather than reporting change) knowing they cannot (and should not) increase the award but change some of the descriptors selected... but then I suffer from precisely the sort of condition where you might expect someone to do that...lol... it's in evidence. Sometimes when I read threads like this I'm mindful that we're dealing with someone who is disabled or has injury/illness and that often frustrations in giving advice may in itself be relevant to their disabilities - and certainly it is something obvious in many contributors too over the years including in this thread. Also over the years I've been criticised for doing exactly what one might expect me to do if you read the medical notes or indeed claim submissions. I do wonder if this claimant suffers in the process due to ways they try to function in and perceive the world around.

Ultimately I have been successful (at second attempt) and in theory makes my claim more secure I would suggest as more points given and therefore more to lose to avoid changed award. My advice to someone else of course could be very different for precisely the reasons you give... the risks... the suffering.. and on the face of it potentially for no possible real gain.

Not particularly relevant to the case in point here of course and yes they should seek advice as they have this ongoing claim with LCW. I'd advise them to read the Alice post on potential other avenues to LCWRA than they have in mind i.e. in addition to the substantial risk if not found to have...... n-f descriptor. Advice for their PIP claim seems a bit simpler through a fresh claim but again I'm mindful that might not be emotionally simple given what it means acceptance of by claimant... it's advice that makes sense but I too would struggle to follow it.