EV Tariff for storage heaters???

Mstty

Boogins said:

Mstty said:

Boogins said:

@QrizB I'm an electrician so I'd have no problem in fitting a time switch and contactor for switching purposes. We use between 10,000 and 12,000 kWhs a year, haven't looked at exact usage per day. Insulation is not great, loft is up to current spec but as it's a cottage the loft is small and we have what are classed as 'rooms in roof' where part of the ceiling is the roof. These parts have poor 1980s insulation in them. Walls are mainly solid clay lump so not great either. If it wasn't a rental property I'd already have improved both walls and ceilings upstairs. Might have to look in to rooms in roof insulation again. Had thought about insulating wallpaper as we have some particular cold spots that condensate in winter and cause mould. Think the rats have been up there and gone through the felt and removed insulation from that particular section!

Hi @Boggins

If you use between 10,000-12,000 kWh a year then that isn't £25 a day.

If you use 80% at night as you have stated let's take the 12000 kWh figure that's 9600 night rate and 2400 day rate.

9600 kWh night rate @19p = £1824
2400 kWh day rate guessing 35p =£840

Say £90 for standing charge

Total £2754

£229.50 a month £7.55 a day on average

This is correct using an average over the year. What I said was during winter I would use this much! 

Yeah but you wouldn't use £25 a day otherwise your yearly usage would have to be much higher. At most winter to summer split is 80% so either you original calculation is wrong and sensational at £25 a day of your usage is more like 20,000 kWh a year.

Regardless like most of the population time to cut back on energy usage or other things to pay the bills. It's hitting everyone's pockets.

MWT

bristolleedsfan said:

If Octopus were genuinely interested in the data not being skewed they would only have ever allowed EV charging during very cheap off peak rates.

One clear take-away with Octopus is that they remain very poor at controlling what their CS staff do with regard to tariffs, and also the auto-renewals on the 'beta' tariffs, the net result is a considerable gain for the lucky customers, but I would never go so far as to interpret management intent from the actions of the CS staff on a day-to-day basis. 

bristolleedsfan

MWT said:

bristolleedsfan said:

If Octopus were genuinely interested in the data not being skewed they would only have ever allowed EV charging during very cheap off peak rates.

One clear take-away with Octopus is that they remain very poor at controlling what their CS staff do with regard to tariffs, and also the auto-renewals on the 'beta' tariffs, the net result is a considerable gain for the lucky customers, but I would never go so far as to interpret management intent from the actions of the CS staff on a day-to-day basis. 

What I  meant was Octopus Go tariff system would have been set up from Day 1 in 2018/19 to only allow EV charging during very cheap off peak rates including those with EVs -

"The harm is that the aim of the tariffs for Octopus at least is to build a group of qualified customers and collect data about use patterns, then to use that data with their partners to develop new products and tariffs to further refine and target the offering, so it is unhelpful to have people who are not part of the target cohort in the dataset."

Octopus management knowingly were very slow to increase off peak rates on Octopus Go ( which is partly the reason Octopus system is currently renewing Go Faster at 2019 rates) also very slow to align Octopus Go off peak rates with standard fixed rates tariff = for months when there was competition/deals about elsewhere Octopus Go was attractive to those with smart meters even if they did not shift any usage to ultra cheap hours.

wittynamegoeshere

I doubt that they're making a loss on it, otherwise they wouldn't offer it.

There is a surplus of night-time energy, they basically just want rid of it.  I really can not see the harm in someone who completely understands what they're doing just making use of this.  The end result is that they're using surplus energy that's not generally needed, in exactly the same way as someone charging their car does.  Octopus gets a new customer, plus its very good for the environment.

I wouldn't recommend it to everyone, but for an electrician who understands the limitations I fail to see the issue.  Especially as it's obvious that many with and without EVs are also making good creative use of this cheap eco energy too.

If they've said that it's intended for EV users then they've covered their backs against anyone claiming mis-selling who intends to heat with it and may end up disappointed.  This may be all that they care about.

This is not fraud, it's buying energy at the advertised rate!

MWT

bristolleedsfan said:

MWT said:

bristolleedsfan said:

If Octopus were genuinely interested in the data not being skewed they would only have ever allowed EV charging during very cheap off peak rates.

One clear take-away with Octopus is that they remain very poor at controlling what their CS staff do with regard to tariffs, and also the auto-renewals on the 'beta' tariffs, the net result is a considerable gain for the lucky customers, but I would never go so far as to interpret management intent from the actions of the CS staff on a day-to-day basis. 

What I  meant was Octopus Go tariff system would have been set up from Day 1 in 2018/19 to only allow EV charging during very cheap off peak rates including those with EVs.

It was always an 'EV' only tariff, they just failed to limit access to it properly, and there was a significant period of time where their CS staff were actively promoting it to everyone with or without an EV as the best choice, which indeed it was.

At the time it started it wasn't technically possible to limit the rate to EV use only so they have always had to deal with the mix of uses, but it still enabled them to build their cohort and get useful data.

This has allowed them to develop the newer 'Intelligent' tariff which is another step towards making the management of the load more reactive to grid needs and pricing.

I think we would both agree that Octopus have not handled the messaging on the 'Go' tariff well and that certainly resulted in many people going onto it that really should not have been there, it just remains to be seen if they actually care enough to put the effort into limiting access even now, or if it will remain an essentially open door...

bristolleedsfan

wittynamegoeshere said:

I doubt that they're making a loss on it, otherwise they wouldn't offer it.

Octopus have said many times the tariff is heavily loss making, I have previously posted a screenshot of them stating that apparent fact.

How it works is a relatively tiny minority of the customer base have done very well out of referrals/heavily subsidised tariffs, they shout/spread the word how well they are doing on forums/social media, basically an alternative to paid advertising

EV owners are regarded as potentially extremely influential customers for spreading the word.

bristolleedsfan

wittynamegoeshere said:

There is a surplus of night-time energy, they basically just want rid of it.  I really can not see the harm in someone who completely understands what they're doing just making use of this.  The end result is that they're using surplus energy that's not generally needed,

If you are certain that you are correct, I suggest you join what I have read to be 1% of Octopus Energy customers who are currently on Agile time of use tariff

QrizB

wittynamegoeshere said:

There is a surplus of night-time energy, they basically just want rid of it.  I really can not see the harm in someone who completely understands what they're doing just making use of this.  The end result is that they're using surplus energy that's not generally needed, in exactly the same way as someone charging their car does.  Octopus gets a new customer, plus its very good for the environment.

There have been times when there is a surplus of electricity (at those times the price drops to zero or below) but they're not very common. This past week, for example, according to Nordpool the lowest hourly price for electricity was £60/MWh (6p/kWh) between 2pm and 3pm on Saturday the 24th.

Looking solely at night-time electricity, the cheapest hour in the period was 11p/kWh.

MWT

It would be great if it was true, but with our base nuclear production as low as it is right now we are still using a lot of gas at night to meet demand...

https://www.electricinsights.co.uk/#/dashboard?_k=rzjr65

wittynamegoeshere

Perhaps the Agile tariff could be better for the OP anyway?

Then they just need some wizzy software that judges the best time to charge the heaters, e.g. wait until it's cheap or give in during the last few hours if it doesn't get cheap enough.  Possibly a bit more work than a few bits of wire and a contactor though!

Does anyone know whether Octupus actually check anything?  If they don't then IMO this tariff is fair game for anyone who wants cheap energy at the times they offer it.  Whether they profit or not is their business, presumably they think it somehow benefits the business, they're not a charity.  I find it hard to believe that they'd offer a loss-making tariff out of choice.