Stone falling into chimney near boundary - who is responsible and who is at danger?

joe90mitch

stuart45 said:

The reason that he's included the pointing in the quote is that it sounds as if you are getting a lot more for your money. 
In practice you could take out the joints on your side and repoint them in an hour. 
As a customer just replacing 2 stones for over £500 seems a lot, but throw.in a repoint and it probably seems better.
Another thing to hear in mind is that repointing is really the bricklayers job, although roofers will often have a go themselves whilst up there.

Ok, useful information again - thank you.

Section62 said:

Any chance of a picture of the scaffolding... curious as to how unsafe/unsuitable it is if a builder is unwilling to use it.  If it is really bad you may want to rethink having the original bloke back.

I've had a go at some photos - hopefully they're enough for you to review. It's all got a bit frustrating - we were actually away over the weekend, with the in-laws dogsitting, so it was my partner's step-dad who spoke to the 2nd roofer and so I've only had second hand information (the 2nd roofer hasn't replied to my texts since). But my partner's step-dad said he said something like the scaffold platform isn't at the correct level for roof work (probably because the original firm did the gutters and ridge tiles at the same time??) and he thought he said it should be fixed into the wall or similar.

Section62

joe90mitch said:

Section62 said:

Any chance of a picture of the scaffolding... curious as to how unsafe/unsuitable it is if a builder is unwilling to use it.  If it is really bad you may want to rethink having the original bloke back.

I've had a go at some photos - hopefully they're enough for you to review. It's all got a bit frustrating - we were actually away over the weekend, with the in-laws dogsitting, so it was my partner's step-dad who spoke to the 2nd roofer and so I've only had second hand information (the 2nd roofer hasn't replied to my texts since). But my partner's step-dad said he said something like the scaffold platform isn't at the correct level for roof work (probably because the original firm did the gutters and ridge tiles at the same time??) and he thought he said it should be fixed into the wall or similar.

With nothing fixed to the wall it is a deathtrap - I'm not surprised the builder refused to use it.  There is nothing stopping the whole scaffhold sliding down the roof - and using a ladder for access up onto the roof would apply an 'overturning force' which would make it more likely to slide or topple.  There's also no guarding/gate on the left-hand side.  Doing it that way may also have damaged your ground floor roof.

Did the roofer also install the downpipe which does a 'U' around the ground floor roof projection?

joe90mitch

Section62 said:

With nothing fixed to the wall it is a deathtrap - I'm not surprised the builder refused to use it.  There is nothing stopping the whole scaffhold sliding down the roof - and using a ladder for access up onto the roof would apply an 'overturning force' which would make it more likely to slide or topple.  There's also no guarding/gate on the left-hand side.  Doing it that way may also have damaged your ground floor roof.

Did the roofer also install the downpipe which does a 'U' around the ground floor roof projection?

Really frustrating to hear. Thanks again. I would assume you'd just suggest not going with the current guys at all from all that. 

Just out of interest, why would they do this? If it helps, it was a different bunch of guys who turned up and did the scaffold (though I assume this is fairly common). Is it just to cut corners and save time (and thus money)? Any useful guidance/tips would be really appreciated, I'm starting to despair that what was theoretically a fairly simple job is just becoming a royal pain in the bum!

For whatever it's worth, we didn't try to cut corners on safety or anything like that ourselves. Originally we only wanted the ridge tiles done until we realised our gutters were in a bad way - we ignored quotes from people who said they didn't need scaffolding to access as we thought this didn't seem safe.

Re downpipe - no, that was there before we moved in (I would assume it's probably been like that since the extension was built ~20 years ago). This firm only replaced the old rotten timber gutters with aluminium. Are you asking because you're not meant to put a 90 degree bend in a downpipe (feel like I've heard that)? That downpipe is also an issue because it just releases the water at ground level into a tiny trench next to the extension wall. It's on the list to sort... But doesn't seem to be causing damp problems (yet...)

stuart45

As above, was that a scaffold firm or the roofer who put that up? I would have wanted some standards on the ground and some rakers.

joe90mitch

stuart45 said:

As above, was that a scaffold firm or the roofer who put that up? I would have wanted some standards on the ground and some rakers.

Scaffold firm. Definitely a separate group of guys/different van and logo etc. When the roofers pointed out the chimney issue they said they'd tell the scaffolders to keep it up a while longer etc.

stuart45

Sorry, didn't read your post about who did the scaff. Something like this should be used.

joe90mitch

What should a layperson like me be noticing there Stuart? I appreciate in a perfect world I shouldn't be having to keep an eye out for these things being done properly, but it'd be good to know for future work so I can check

From yours and Section62's comments, I assume the gate is definitely one. In that photo of yours is it also that the poles extend down towards the ground, rather than rest on the roof? Does scaffold always need tie-ing into the wall?

Feeling quite rubbish about all this (though very grateful for all the input here). Would you guys say it's probably best to steer clear of the guys who have been doing the work so far, then?

Section62

joe90mitch said:

Just out of interest, why would they do this? If it helps, it was a different bunch of guys who turned up and did the scaffold (though I assume this is fairly common). Is it just to cut corners and save time (and thus money)? Any useful guidance/tips would be really appreciated, I'm starting to despair that what was theoretically a fairly simple job is just becoming a royal pain in the bum!

It varies - sometimes to save time/money, sometimes "I've always done it that way and never had a problem"

As sturat45 says, the ideal would be using standards to take the load down to the ground, and it is vital* to have rakers to give it lateral support to prevent toppling. (*if using rakers were impossible then anchoring to the wall may be a possibility).  If you google 'scaffold rakers' you'll get some images showing what it should look like.

Are you being invoiced separately for the scaffolding?

joe90mitch said:

Are you asking because you're not meant to put a 90 degree bend in a downpipe (feel like I've heard that)? That downpipe is also an issue because it just releases the water at ground level into a tiny trench next to the extension wall. It's on the list to sort... But doesn't seem to be causing damp problems (yet...)

From the pictures it doesn't look like 90 degree (which I'd avoid at all costs) but 67/113 which are Ok, but ideally you limit the use of them because (a) they are a cause of blockages and (b) excessive use looks ugly.  Assuming the lower section of pipe has to be tucked into the extension wall because of the accessway then it would have been better to bring the upper section down on a vertical line which missed the extension, such that only one offset (pair) was required.  That could be a problem if that's where your boundary is and it would mean fixing the downpipe to your neighbour's wall... but then in that scenario the downpipe is having to cross over the boundary as it is, so the difference in terms of trespass is relatively minor.

If there's no proper drain to discharge into at ground level then as the total roof area being drained isn't that great I'd be tempted to discharge the upper gutter onto the extension roof instead.  Some people might argue that is more of a bodge, but if done correctly it should be the lesser of two evils (IMV).

stuart45

Doesn't have to be tied if there are rakers which go to the ground at an angle and stop the scaffold falling away from the wall. 
For a quick half day job most builders would probably accept no gate, but that scaffold is a poor job. 
Obviously if you're not in the trade you can't be expected to know.
The standards( uprights) should go down to the ground.
I know it's tricky for you, but it still might be better to get those stones replaced.

Section62

joe90mitch said:

Feeling quite rubbish about all this (though very grateful for all the input here). Would you guys say it's probably best to steer clear of the guys who have been doing the work so far, then?

Don't feel that way... you did the right thing by avoiding the total cowboys who would have risked their necks with ladders only.

With the approach these workers have taken to charging for the extra work, and the state of the scaffolding, I would normally say you shouldn't give them any more money.  However, doing that will cost you substantially more if you have to get someone different to put up a whole new scaffold.  The dilemma is whether to let them finish the job off with a scaffold you now believe to be unsafe (but saves you money) or to tell them to clear up and clear off.  If it were me I'd probably point out the risks of the scaffold and suggest if they made it safe and repaired the two stones for no extra charge then I'd call it quits. (assuming you've not paid them in full yet)