£430 item despatched despite saying don't, Sat for 4 weeks outside, gone missing.

Manxman_in_exile

If or when you go to your card provider, you might want to make sure that they understand you are making a s75 claim and not a chargeback claim.

Banks and other card providers tend to prefer to pursue chargeback claims over s75 claims because with a chargeback they are claiming the money back from the merchant, so it costs the card provider nothing.  With a s75 claim, the refund is paid by your card provider themselves, so it does cost them money in the first instance.  (They might attempt to recover it from the trader, or they might not).  Hence they usually default to making a chargeback claim even if you have a valid s75 claim.

Chargebacks might be quicker than a s75 claim, but they're easier for a trader to challenge, and if your card provider accepts the challenge you can't have a second go at a chargeback.  (Or at least that is my understanding... )  Chargeback rules are also - in my opinion - a bit daft and arbitrary.  So, for example, you wouldn't have a successful chargeback claim for non-delivery of goods so long as the trader had proof of delivery - and that means proof of delivery anywhere, even to the wrong address!  And here it sounds as if they do have "proof"(?) of delivery

The card providers have made their own rules up in respect of chargebacks (which is fair enough, it's their scheme, not a statutory one) and I think s75 gives you stronger protection.

On your general issue, you say that you and your neighbours are good at taking in other people's packages when they aren't in.  Assuming your neighbours knew that you were away for some time - maybe they did, maybe they didn't - wouldn't you have expected them to notice the unattended package on your doorstep or outside your house, and taken it in for you - knowing you wouldn't be back for some time?  I know if I saw an unattended package on a neighbour's doorstep that I'd take it in if I knew they weren't in.  And they'd do the same for me.

I'm not suggesting that your neighbours might have nicked it!  I'm wondering how reliable the courier company's statement is that they delivered it...

born_again

jumeriah64 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

Another couple of options if you don't get anywhere with the comany/ How did you pay? If a debit card, consider opening a chargeback for non delivery. If credit card, a section 75 claim for non delivery.

Many thanks for the the suggestion. It was paid on an Amex card. Have to say I'd not thought of that.

And does non-delivery also include delivered but at wrong time and missing? I guess it would as was discussed earlier. 

It's certainly worth a call to them given the total lack of co-operation and ownership of the selling business.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Can't say for AMEX. But certainly ALL Visa & Mastercard look at is. Has the item been delivered. That is ALL. If there is proof of delivery. Even to the wrong place/time etc. Then the retailer can & will reject the chargeback.

Manxman_in_exile

born_again said:

jumeriah64 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

Another couple of options if you don't get anywhere with the comany/ How did you pay? If a debit card, consider opening a chargeback for non delivery. If credit card, a section 75 claim for non delivery.

Many thanks for the the suggestion. It was paid on an Amex card. Have to say I'd not thought of that.

And does non-delivery also include delivered but at wrong time and missing? I guess it would as was discussed earlier. 

It's certainly worth a call to them given the total lack of co-operation and ownership of the selling business.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Can't say for AMEX. But certainly ALL Visa & Mastercard look at is. Has the item been delivered. That is ALL. If there is proof of delivery. Even to the wrong place/time etc. Then the retailer can & will reject the chargeback.

Ah - I'd overlooked it was Amex.

I've only ever heard of chargeback as being applied to Mastercard and Visa - do Amex do it too?

photome

Manxman_in_exile said:

born_again said:

jumeriah64 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

Another couple of options if you don't get anywhere with the comany/ How did you pay? If a debit card, consider opening a chargeback for non delivery. If credit card, a section 75 claim for non delivery.

Many thanks for the the suggestion. It was paid on an Amex card. Have to say I'd not thought of that.

And does non-delivery also include delivered but at wrong time and missing? I guess it would as was discussed earlier. 

It's certainly worth a call to them given the total lack of co-operation and ownership of the selling business.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Can't say for AMEX. But certainly ALL Visa & Mastercard look at is. Has the item been delivered. That is ALL. If there is proof of delivery. Even to the wrong place/time etc. Then the retailer can & will reject the chargeback.

Ah - I'd overlooked it was Amex.

I've only ever heard of chargeback as being applied to Mastercard and Visa - do Amex do it too?

you can do a chargeback with AMEX but you only have 20 days to claim rather than 45 with master and visa.

s75 rules are the same for all

details are on the main part of the MSE site

jumeriah64

The truth is no one knows if the item was genuinely delivered. There is a scanned delivery note with a signature that no-one can identify. It's certainly no-one associated with us. And that courier has allegedly gone out of business since delivering on the 2nd March. And for sure it's not with any neighbours.

Strangely I'm inclined to believe that they did even given the sellers dismissive and unhelpful attitude.  They seem to feel that sending the POD is enough to relieve them of any responsibility. They have not said that but it's a clear impression. Maybe they are aware of the 20 day Amex limit and have been deliberately stretching it out. And they have been very pedestrian at best in replies and needed constant chasing.

For me, had they had a more understanding tone, we may well have considered compromise. Given they have had near zero of that then I feel we will challenge that given the good advice given

jumeriah64

I think unfortunately the Amex window will have expired. The order was placed before we left the UK mid February. It's still worth a call.

And it is good data for another time to know about. Rather fortunately it's the first time in many thousands of orders placed were instructions were ignored, an item went missing and the seller were so totally immune to the concept on customer service.

powerful_Rogue

jumeriah64 said:

I think unfortunately the Amex window will have expired. The order was placed before we left the UK mid February. It's still worth a call.

And it is good data for another time to know about. Rather fortunately it's the first time in many thousands of orders placed were instructions were ignored, an item went missing and the seller were so totally immune to the concept on customer service.

You have 120 days from when you notice the problem to start a s75 claim. Remember, you want to initiate a s75 claim, not a chargeback.

Also, with Amex, you have their purchase protection - worth seeing if that is also an avenue.

Manxman_in_exile

Surely there's no time limit on a s75 claim, is there?  Doesn't s75 give the consumer the same rights against the credit card* provider as against the trader?  Wouldn't that be the usual 6 year limitation period?

* Can't remember if it was a credit card purchase here, and therefore s75 applies, or not...

Manxman_in_exile

jumeriah64 said:

I think unfortunately the Amex window will have expired. The order was placed before we left the UK mid February. It's still worth a call...

It won't have expired if it was a credit card purchase and s75 applies  (It doesn't apply to debit cards where you have to use the "inferior" chargeback).

The only thing I'm uncertain about is whether an Amex card is really a credit card.  They certainly used to be only charge cards and not credit cards because you had to pay the full amount back each month.  I suspect that Amex do issue proper credit cards these days, but it might be worth confirming it is a credit card first.  If it is a credit card than s75 applies and I don't believe there is a time limit beyind the usual six years.  But I may be wrong...

Ergates

jumeriah64 said:

The truth is no one knows if the item was genuinely delivered. There is a scanned delivery note with a signature that no-one can identify. It's certainly no-one associated with us. And that courier has allegedly gone out of business since delivering on the 2nd March. And for sure it's not with any neighbours.

Strangely I'm inclined to believe that they did even given the sellers dismissive and unhelpful attitude.  They seem to feel that sending the POD is enough to relieve them of any responsibility. They have not said that but it's a clear impression. Maybe they are aware of the 20 day Amex limit and have been deliberately stretching it out. And they have been very pedestrian at best in replies and needed constant chasing.

For me, had they had a more understanding tone, we may well have considered compromise. Given they have had near zero of that then I feel we will challenge that given the good advice given

It doesn't really matter *what* the courier did with the parcel (left it on your doorstep, delivered to the wrong address, stole it, set it on fire, etc.) given that you clearly couldn't have received the parcel yourself (I assume you can quite easily prove you were away at the time) and you hadn't identified an alternative recipient.  It simply isn't possible for them to have correctly delivered it, so any "proof" they can show is meaningless.