Replacement Windows - how do I get Double Glazing without being chewed up & spat out!

[Deleted User]

No, they were (we moved since then) wooden double glazed sashes and they were beautiful, the fitter reproduced the details to match the original (the old one was rotten), they did a fab job. Here is one of them:



My flat was in an Edwardian house so UPVC would have looked horrendous. The flat was nice and warm with the new sashes and beautifully insulated, they opened very easily, I was very pleased. I think they charged me £895 for sashes replacement were the frame was in good condition and a bit more if the frame was rotten and had to come out, but these are London prices.
Maybe you can give them a call and ask them to recommend you someone in the Midlands? Let me know.

lisap4123

Van 1971 - your windows really are wonderful !! I may post a picture of my horrendous windows too - like a before and after. I am actually quite scared now about having my windows done as I just dont want to do the wrong thing but whatever I do get done is on a tight budget ! My window obsession is getting worse and I have even had a nightmare the other night that complete untrained cowboys were to fit my windows !! I think I need help.

With regards to those who have emailed me asking for a list of what to look out for - I have just discovered that I am still creating this list and discovering more things so I will email it out (or post it on here) when I have finished the project. I have decided I am not going to make any recommendations to those who ask just yet, as I still havent decided who I will get to do the work ! I was fairly happy with Harpers until today. Today I discovered that if I had gone with them I would have illegal windows even though they are FENSA registered ! This would cause me a nightmare if I wanted to sell the house. This is why....

WARNING TO ANYONE WANTING SASH REPLACEMENTS - I have just discovered that building regs state that if you are replacing sash windows the replacement window must open at both the top and the bottom. Also there must be a fire escape window so child restricters on the windows are not possible. If they don't then you will have problems when you come to sell the house and the windows will not comply with building regs. Also one of the windows must be the fire escape. Again I was quoted (not knowing the above) for windows that had one opener (top) with child restricters (but would open then much further when a button was pressed). What I will need to have to comply with building regs (I am told) are that all sash replacement windows must open at the top and the bottom, and one upstairs will act as a fire escape - so no child restrictors !!

I have had an interesting day calling local window companies. I have to say that on the whole local companies are more informative, friendly and approachable (and non pressurising) than national companies - in my experience. Once of these companies said that although they were FENSA registered they didnt think that it was worth the paper it was written on as the industry self regulates and there is one to police the system. Local authorities dont have the capacity to do it. Therefore although FENSA registered, some companies are fitting any thing, any how. A second company thought that even though FENSA registered it was the customer that would ultimately be responsible if they had windows fitted that did not comply with building regs. Yes the customer could go back to complain to a company if 2 years down the line they found that they couldnt sell the home due to the windows not complying with building regs, but trying to get the company to accept responsibility and correct the work without additional cost would be a bit of a feat of acheivement - if they were even still in business. I think that the term 'buyer beware' springs to mind. Sashman warned me of this and he was spot on !!! I am stunned. What is the point in FENSA if no one regulates it and companies can get away with still fitting anything?? What do others think - especially within the trade??

I am now awaiting further appointments from some other local companies who are more aware of building regs ... will report back on how it all goes.

[Deleted User]

Thanks Lisa, they were indeed beautiful. My sashes opened top and bottom and had child restrictors operated by a key inserted into the frame (I was on 1st floor). When I sold the flat the buyers solicitor asked for a FENSA certificate, which I had. That was it. If you want peace of mind go for a fitter that has an insurance backed guarantee (mine did). Good luck with everything. Sounds like you are on the right track. :beer:

lisap4123

The more I look into the regulations of replacing windows (so I am compliant and dont end up with an expensive mistake) the more complex it becomes. There seems to be confusion throughout the industry as to interpretation of the building regs. It is my novice understanding having researched it a bit more that whatever window is coming out the replacement window must have the same or improved openings. This is taken from the FENSA website: http://www.fensa.co.uk/faq.aspx
"What has to be certified?
Where a window or windows is/are completely replaced (as opposed to repaired) in existing dwellings, they must comply with Approved Documents Parts L1 and N (safety in relation to impact). In addition, the building should not end up with a worse level of compliance with respect to other applicable parts of Building Regulations, which includes Parts A (Structure), B (means of escape in case of fire) F (ventilation), J (combustion appliances and fuel storage systems) and M (access for the disabled).
Building Regulations for replacement windows state that “The situation must be made no worse than the outgoing windows” for example if the outgoing windows contained trickle vents the new placement windows must include them there are no exceptions, the window openings must be the same or better than the outgoing windows the openings cannot be made any smaller. Side window openings cannot be replaced by top openings over fixed windows.
Windows and doors in critical locations ie Windows below 800mm from floor level and doors where the glass comes within 1500mm of the floor level to the start of the glass must contain safety glass (toughened or laminated) and must include the relevant safety mark clearly visibly to comply with Building Regulation N."
There is more of an explanation on this website with diagrams also:
http://www.windowstoday.co.uk/fensa2.htm
To me this means that my bathroom window which has a side and top opening must be replaced with a window with a side and top opening (I wanted just a top opening). Also it would appear to mean that sash which originally opened top and bottom must be replaced with new windows which also open top and bottom......you would think (and have been confirmed by various industry representatives)....however......I then spoke to another industry rep from another company who insisted that this wasnt totally the case. In my windows upstairs in the bedrooms I would be able to have a bottom opener (to act as fire escape and ventilation) and the top window can be fixed but vented with trickle vents. Therefore the opening area would be the same (as sash can only open either top, or bottom or half and half). Then as I really wasnt convinced he phoned a rep from FENSA who is responsible for inspections and who confirmed that the above was the case and I didnt have to have top and bottom openeings as long as the tricle vents on the top were in place and the bottom opened fully.

I am totally confused and getting really hacked off with this whole thing. Harpers by the sound of it were right in the first place so I owe them an apology for blaming them for almost ending up with non-compliant windows - not that they ever returned my emails asking for more info anyway. Oh well

Steve_xx

When I had my windows replaced some 5 years ago I simply decided what I wanted. I did not entertain any notion of sash windows as replacements at that time and didn't know there were such replacement types. I didn't get involved with building regutions or the local authority.

I replaced the front door in 2007 and I similarly did not get involved with building regulations.

Who on earth will police this if you don't replace in accordance with regulations?

Flyfisher_2

Steve_xx wrote: »

When I had my windows replaced some 5 years ago I simply decided what I wanted. I did not entertain any notion of sash windows as replacements at that time and didn't know there were such replacement types. I didn't get involved with building regulations or the local authority.

I replaced the front door in 2007 and I similarly did not get involved with building regulations.

Who on earth will police this if you don't replace in accordance with regulations?

Probably no one until you want to sell your house or somebody has an accident (no toughened glass, fire escape hinges etc), they must also comply with current thermal performance standards.
All windows installed after 2002 have to have a Fensa certificate or will have to be inspected by your local council building regulations inspector.

"When the time comes to sell your property, your purchaser's solicitors will ask for evidence that any replacement glazing installed since April 2002 complies with the Building Regulations."

Steve_xx

Flyfisher wrote: »

Probably no one until you want to sell your house or somebody has an accident (no toughened glass, fire escape hinges etc), they must also comply with current thermal performance standards.
All windows installed after 2002 have to have a Fensa certificate or will have to be inspected by your local council building regulations inspector.

"When the time comes to sell your property, your purchaser's solicitors will ask for evidence that any replacement glazing installed since April 2002 complies with the Building Regulations."

Right then, so I'll say they were installed in 2001. I guess that'll be fine then?

belfastgirl23

Lisa if you do ever get around to doing your word document I'd love to see it. I live in an old (1905) house with mostly original sash windows (esp at the front). They are draughty, most of them don't open and some of the frames are a bit ropey in places. But a lot of the glass is original and has that lovely rippled effect and I'm really torn about replacing them. The bigger issue for us is noise on the street as well and when I did get someone around to do a quote he wasn't able to really say how much that would improve since most of his info was focused on heat retention (although I was glad he didn't try to bull***t me on it and pretend he had an answer for this). He also said we couldn't keep the original glass I know for sure I don't want to go the UPVC route, I want to replace like for like but want an improvement in noise and in heat retention and ideally retain the original glass where possible. Would love to hear anything more about your experiences.

BTW I only came on this forum to look for an ironing board recommendation but your thread was too interesting to pass.

lisap4123

Thanks BelfastGirl. Maybe like someone else on the thread has mentioned it may be best to restore and have secondary glazing on the inside to improve heat retention and reduce noise? Im not doing that with mine though - UPVC all the way for me !! lol. Glad u are finding the blog interesting..... to be honest it has been a real rollercoaster ride which i would never have expected of simply getting windows done!

lisap4123

To determine once and for all what exactly a person is required to have when replacing sash windows I emailed FENSA....this is their response:

[FONT=&quot]Dear Lisa, your mock sash windows must either open top and bottom or open at the bottom with a fixed top and tickle vent. Bathrooms do not have to have a fire escape window, therefore you can change to a top opener only but this must not make ventilation any worse.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Regards,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]FENSA Adminstration NS[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Tel: 0870 780 2028[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Fax: 0870 780 2029[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Website: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]www.fensa.co.uk[/FONT]
.........so Harpers were right in the first place and the companies insisting that you must have top and bottom openers are wrong.......or misguided at least. But to be honest I can understand why there is so much confusion as the building regs seem to indicate that you must replace like for like and are very open to interpretation. Hats off to one company in particular - Windowsareus in Stratford. When I called him up for info and was insisting (in my misguided belief) that replacement sash windows must open top and bottom he insisted that I was wrong and called Fensa to clarify. It was Adam from Windowsareus that suggested I contacted Fensa myself to satisfy myself of the rules and regs.

So now we know..........however after all of that - having thought about ventilation in my house I have decided I want top and bottom openers anyway - it gets really hot in my house in the summer!! The search for a reasonable quote and a decent company continues - though Windowsareus definatley have my respect now for their honesty and forthrightness and for knowing the regs inside out !!