Replacement Windows - how do I get Double Glazing without being chewed up & spat out!

lisap4123

I have an old terrace (100 yrs old) with original sash windows. They are in a poor state - dont open, rotton wood, cracked glass. I need them replacing asap as the house is cold now and have saved up some money for it. But I have already had a bad experience with a dble glazing company who intimidated & pressurised me with devious tactics and the salesman was in my house working on me for 4 hours ! I signed up and then cancelled in the cool off period (also an ordeal). I dont want to go through this again. I need 4 sash windows and 1 small bathroom window replacing and a front door.

I just need some sound advice on where to go (double glazing firms, manufacturers direct or through a local builder?), how to know im not being shafted, how to make sure of the quality, how to get a good price. Anyone know what kind of price I should be expecting to pay? Im really in the dark. I would usually get a few round for quotes but im just scared to because of previous experiences yet I need to as they wont quote without coming out - Its catch 22 but I need them replacing asap - was thinking of January. Do window companies have sales in January? - and are the offers really true offers or just more tactics to get your details then give you the hard sell? PLEASE - all advice welcome !!! I really need help !!!

Oh yes ...also just to mention I couldnt possibly fit my own windows - I am a female with my own house - I do very basic DIY only !!

kitchpoo

Firstly good luck! Unfortunately there are few true good window companies in existance as they are as bad as each other - Having worked for one of the largest and best known suppliers for a number of years and also inspecting windows by them for the last 15 years I have seen the sales blurb and then the actual product - but this is for PVCu - I'm assuming you want wooden casements as you mention having sash windows??

Your best advice is from word of mouth, have you seen anyone else with good windows, go and knock on the door and ask - 1st hand experience is invaluable.

A local council near me owns a joinery firm (or did) and was competitive and you knew there was no sales pitch with it - that may be worth investigating.

It may be worth noting where - roughly you are in the UK as somone may have 1st hand experience.

ps- I have a garage full of terrace windows in PVCu with a nice mullion mid bar ready for installation for £15 a frame!!

kitchpoo

lisap4123 wrote: »

Oh yes ...also just to mention I couldnt possibly fit my own windows - I am a female with my own house - I do very basic DIY only !!

You are also not FENSA qualified - which you have to be (or you have to have a building inspector visit and sign off the installation)

toffeegirl

Several years ago I went through my double glazing 'experience'.

The visit came about via a neighbour having their rear windows done. I told them windows were not on my short term list - but agreed to talk. We went through all the product details but didn't really negotiate and I was left with a 'valid for a year' quote. They rang several times over the next few weeks to follow up but I said although I was interested in their product - the time was not right. In the end I invited them back (am I mad?) but I made it very clear that it had to be a very good price.

There is no denying that this visit took quite some time but the most important thing was: I felt that I was in charge. I had already done the product display stuff, so this was just negotiation. At every price I just kept saying: I am sure that this is a reasonable price for what is a top end product but, as you know, the time is just not right. That was my line and I used it over and over. During our negotiation, the sales guy rang his supervisor a couple of times ‘to see what extra he could get me’ and I ended up on the phone to the supervisor direct…..

I got my windows at less than half the original quote – but even then, who knows if I got a good deal? Well, actually, I did, because I then got in touch with their marketing department and got my house listed as a show home featured in their magazine (photos of the front of the house only) – and got all of my money back (less VAT).

You have to be strong minded and more determined than they are. I also think that it helped to have 2 separate visits – it meant that I was ‘fresh’ for the negotiation part (i.e. they hadn’t bored me into submission !!) and it also gave me a month or two to play ‘hard to get’ – which seemed to make them more desperate to ‘get’ me.

All I can say is, good luck and maybe get a friend in…..

toffeegirl

Another idea is to ask the neighbours ... for those you don't know, stick a note in with a Christmas card asking if they, or anyone they know has had windows done etc

I need a builder and plumber next year, so I am planning to approach those neighbours I don't know this way....

lisap4123

Thanks for these responses. Nice to know im not on my own in dealing with these vagabonds !! I will have to be strong with them - I would love to be able to get my money back by being a show home - not sure if they would want a terrace as a show home but you never know ! I have seen this offered before but took it to be another scam.

Regarding the type of window - I was thinking UPVC as most of those in my street which have had replacements have gone for this type. Does anyone have any advice about the benefits of having the UPVC Sash type replacements? - I know they are more expensive but not sure of they are worth it? I am located in Worcester in the Midlands by the way.

I went onto the FENSA site and they have a list of companies who can self certify the window installation. But i would also be happy to pay the ?£65 to get the windows certified by the council if this option was a good deal for me.

I also tried the BFRC site, so now I know a bit more about the energy efficiency ratings. So at least I have now decided I am going to go for a minimum energy rating of C, and try to make sure the glass is thick and good quality. This is a start !!

I think I may update my experiences on here as a kind of blog. Whilst im sure you good people have better things to do than read about my experiences of getting my windows replaced, I am still hoping for guidance and good advice along the way....and also my experience may help others - whether I manage to get a good deal or whether I get chewed up and spat out !!! lol

maninthestreet

Measure your windows, take the measurements to the office of a LOCAL DG firm and ask for a quote - that way, you don't get the high-pressure sales push in your own living room, and you can get up and walk out of their office if you feel you are being pressurised.

toffeegirl

lisap4123 wrote: »

....not sure if they would want a terrace as a show home but you never know ! I have seen this offered before but took it to be another scam.

My house is a mid-terrace.... Its not such a bad choice as a show house since there are so many of them about! - I know what you mean though, those glossy magazines aren't going to be beating a path to my door!

As for getting my money back... it wasn't a scam. I was happy with the price I'd paid in the end anyway, so managing to get most of it back was a (huge!!) bonus rather than something I was relying on. I just had a board outside my house for a month or so, and a photo of me (with a giant cheque and a cheesey grin outside my front door) in their brochure. It was something which I pursued AFTER the windows were paid for and installed.

A blog is a good idea - sometimes too many people ask for advice and then don't come back and share their experience.

maninthestreet's advice is good - if you're in their place, its easy to get up and walk out. It'll help to feel more in control.

sashman

FENSA lists those installation companies (12,000 odd) that are registered for the self certification that they have installed products in accordance with the building regulations. They do not guarantee quality, nor do they resolve any complaints (other than if something is technically within the regulations)

The GGF (Glass and Glazing Federation) however vet the financials of every member prior to membership, and do offer an arbitration service (FREE to the public) and guarantees customer deposits so look for their membership details.

All products should be fit for purpose, however the Police look for products that have enhanced security (better than average), BS7950 specifies the level of this improved security, so look out for SBD approved products (VERY few sash window companies have SBD so check sbd web site)

Also check products have BBA (British Board of Agreement). They are independent test house that certifies products will last for 20,000 opening cycles (approx 20 years life), again this is not a requirement but good evidence that the company has products that deliver what’s claimed. Again very few companies have BBA on sash windows.

Then check out the EST web site (very poor site but….) Energy Savings Trust recommend products those products that are the best 20% in the industry so you don’t have to make comparisons, products listed ARE the best 20% in the industry. C rated sash windows should save 74% of the heat that would be lost through a single glazed sash window, an A rated (there’s only one certified) saves ALL the heat lost that way!

Look for BSI kite mark that professional installation companies can now get to confirm they are professional in their workmanship, (that’s not to say others aren’t professional, but its nice to the reassurance that British Standards of installation are being met

Establish what (if any) guarantees the manufacturer passes onto you the client. Most manufactures limit their guarantees to the installer leaving you high and dry when the installer ceases trading. See if the installer belongs to a preferred installers scheme, or a manufacturers network that guarantees the workmanship of their installation partners.

Sure all these things are likely to push up the final price, but you’ll have someone to get back to if the worst should happen. Cheap products cost a fortune to put right when the installer has gone bust!!

Finally always insist on a written quotation, get their proposal in writing so every thing is clear from the start, especially the items listed above. LOTS of companies claim to have BBA, EST, SBD but those products are non standard and will only be included if you specifically request them, and its in the contract!

Follow these pointers and you cannot go far wrong

Sashman

lisap4123

OK so today I have measured my windows and I found that they are all different sizes (strange). Not sure which part I should measure but I measured from the edge of each window frame to the other edge and the very top of the frame to very bottom - Is this how I should do it?

My windows measurements are as follows:
Bedrm 1: 49.5" wide x 67" long
Bedrm 2: 43.5" x 62"
Dining Rm: 46.5" x 65.5"
Lounge: 51" x 65.5"
Bathroom (the only non-sash window) 37.5 wide x 35 long

I have found a website which states it will quote on line so am going to give it a go....
This website:
http://www.windowsanddoors.co.uk/estimate/siwindows/specification.html
OK great I have a starting point. I got an online quote for 4 x mock sash windows (measurements as above ) and 1 frosted standard window for bathroom) with Pilkington K glass for £1450. Not sure about energy rating. This is for supply of the windows only so I wont be using them but it gives me a good benchmark figure. My mum recons that a company that supplied and fitted windows would double the supply price to cover fitting costs. Therefore £3000 would be the max I would be needing to pay as a benchmark so am going to try and get the project done for under this cost and the best quality I can find for this.

Then I checked my local paper and found some FENSA local window companies with supposed 'offers'. I called one up - Harper Windows. They manufacter, supply and fit windows and state any visits will last no longer than 1/2 hour, and they will give you an approximate estimate over the phone. Feeling a bit more reassured I called them up. The chap I spoke to was friendly and not at all pushy (amazed!), I gave him the measurements and asked a few questions according to the checklist I have created based upon the advice I have been given, and info I have been collecting. Its pilkington K glass with Low E. So far so good. He called me back 10 mins later and estimated £1948 including removal of old Sash windows, any remedial work needed and fitting of new windows, subject to confirming after viewing the windows in person. So far so good !! He didnt push for an appointment but I asked to take it to the next step so he is coming on thursday to check the windows, measurements and confirm a price - fingers crossed this goes well. This is a big leap of faith on my part given my previous bad experiences !!

kitchpoo

Good start lisaP.

Dont discount getting a builder to instal and just another company to supply.

One thing if you do, I know its pedantic and to make sure you are spot on with measurements, a firm will ask for them in mm. You need to measure the top and bottom for the horizontal, and the left edge and right edge for the vertical. (so 2 hori and 2 vert measurements to ensure the window opening is square and the frame isnt undersized on one edge)

As for the £65 option it is a good idea, part of the FENSA training will take in to account the obligations for fire escape and any new frame should comply with SBD. Also look at Buliding regs regarding where glass neds to be to BS6206 (Toughened), below 800mm from floor level, bottom of stairs, beside doors etc and also what windows need restrictors on.

Can you find out what frames they use, ask what the profile is. I've used REHAU and find them fine for all the installations I've had.