PIP face to face assessment - Need some advice.

Spoonie_Turtle

Honestly, you may as well do an MR anyway.  You can explain (again) your difficulties and focus on the descriptors you think should apply to you and exactly why.  It might possibly succeed.

If you do a good, thorough MR request and it doesn't succeed, you'll have done the groundwork for an appeal.  It is also not unknown for DWP to offer an appropriate award when looking at the case again before an appeal hearing.

If it goes all the way to tribunal in front of a panel, they will ask detailed questions but they will give you time to answer and explain fully.  The tribunal panels are usually only interested in ascertaining the facts and making the correct decision according to the law, they are completely independent of DWP and it's quite rare for people to not get an appropriate award from a tribunal. 

(It is possible to then appeal if it's felt the tribunal misapplied a point of law, but that's rarely needed.)

I understand the process is draining; and you can decide at any point not to go further if you really don't feel it would be worth it.  But if you are certain you should score enough for a particular award, you've got that going for you and it most likely is worth it to pursue, at least doing an MR and seeing what happens.  Some of them do succeed.

For the mobility, how far can you repeatedly and reliably walk with any walking aids and without severe discomfort?  I use a wheelchair out of the house and they originally scored me 4 as well, which is completely wrong as I actually score 12, and it sounds like you might too if you can't stand for more than a minute (I'm guessing you can't get very far in that minute?).

With your mental health, there is room for that to be taken into account by the PIP assessment.  I am much less familiar with which areas it might apply to though.  It most likely comes under the 'safely' aspect of various activities, whether you can safely be left alone to do them or whether you are likely to try harming yourself.  ('Safely' also applies to whether you're at risk of accidentally harming yourself too, e.g. if your grip is very bad and using even adapted knives is dangerous.)

There is this page, not very in-depth but a start https://www.mentalhealthandmoneyadvice.org/en/welfare-benefits/pip-mental-health-guide/help-with-your-pip-claim/how-to-fill-in-the-pip-form/
Your local Mind might have advisers, apparently some of them do but not all.  Do you have any local disability services?  If so, definitely have a look to see if they have any benefits advisers as well.

(Edit: cross-posted with Alice_Holt who as usual had given much better advice!)

Alice_Holt

(Edit: cross-posted with Alice_Holt who as usual had given much better advice!)

Thanks, but not sure about that  


With your mental health, there is room for that to be taken into account by the PIP assessment.  I am much less familiar with which areas it might apply to though.  It most likely comes under the 'safely' aspect of various activities, whether you can safely be left alone to do them or whether you are likely to try harming yourself.  ('Safely' also applies to whether you're at risk of accidentally harming yourself too, e.g. if your grip is very bad and using even adapted knives is dangerous.)

And with depression - the need for prompting. Most DL activities will score points if prompting is required. The OP may wish to mention this in relation to dressing (if applicable).

Face to face engagement can be an important PIP activity for claimants with poor mental health.
https://pipinfo.net/activities/engaging-with-other-people-face-to-face
There is some useful case law around the inability to form and maintain relationships (friendships), as one would wish to do, due to depression / anxiety / poor mental health.  This may apply to the OP.

Also budgeting - if depression means not opening post / etc.  Or irrational spending decisions due to anxiety / poor mental health. 


OP -  I hope you will be encouraged to challenge the decision.
Poppy, Spoonie, and myself would not have taken the time to post long replies and useful links if we thought your appeal would not be likely to succeed. 

SaitenMar

Thank you Spoonie_Turtle and Alice_Holt. Really appreciate the help and advice you have provided me. At the moment I'm not in a great frame of mind and in some pain this weekend so will see how I'm feeling on Monday and start reading and beginning the process, I know there is a time limit but right now I can't focus very well. I will also try sending my report to local Citizen's Advice or even call them for help because I think I'll need it, it all feels rather overwhelming. 

Regarding my mobility I can't walk far at all and standing is especially difficult as I begin to suffer a great deal of pain and stiffness. I use walking aids to help me. I would say that I can only walk about 50 metres or so (with aids) before I start having great difficulties and I rely on taxi's or my parents to get to appointments etc.
 
Hopefully I'll be feeling better soon and can put my focus on the next process. Again, thank you so much for the help. 

poppy12345

SaitenMar said:

 I know there is a time limit but right now I can't focus very well.

With good reason you actually have 13 months to challenge the decision. If you're outside the 1 month timescale and DWP refuse your MR on this then you just proceed to Tribunal.

SaitenMar

Hi folks, 

So I'm feeling a little better today and had the chance to read up on starting the MR process and will be using the Advicenow PIP Mandatory Reconsideration Request Letter Tool to help me figure this all out. I will also fill in the PIP Mandatory Request form from here. It's all rather complex to me so far but will give it a shot and take my time with it to ensure I understand everything. If I have any questions I'd really appreciate some help from those who've dealt with this before. 

One area which I struggled with when I original filled in the form was how to approach answering each question in relation to having to live with both arthritis and how that affects me, and how depression/anxiety affects me. I worry that I focused to much on one rather than the other and how the questions are outlined it's hard to get across mental health challenges in writing on these forms. Plus the fact that the assessor doesn't appear to have applied the same rules to every question as it states they should makes it even more difficult. Funnily enough my father even pointed out a bunch of spelling mistakes in the written paragraph, I know that's nothing major but it shows how little time they probably give to these claims. It's so frustrating when you put so much time and effort into the claim only to feel like you've been ignored. 

Anyway, like I said if I do have any other questions and/or you have any other pieces of advice please post it. I really appreciate it. 

Alice_Holt

SaitenMar said:

Hi folks, 

One area which I struggled with when I original filled in the form was how to approach answering each question in relation to having to live with both arthritis and how that affects me, and how depression/anxiety affects me. I worry that I focused to much on one rather than the other and how the questions are outlined it's hard to get across mental health challenges in writing on these forms. Plus the fact that the assessor doesn't appear to have applied the same rules to every question as it states they should makes it even more difficult. Funnily enough my father even pointed out a bunch of spelling mistakes in the written paragraph, I know that's nothing major but it shows how little time they probably give to these claims. 

  Give full info on the MR. So....   
       
  ...Explain how the arthritis affects your ability to do the disputed activities (i.e takes a long time, need help with shoes & socks, etc / painful and you need to rest afterwards / couldn't repeat a task (as needed) because of pain / need to use clothes that are easier to put on - slip on shoes / etc, etc,
         Then start a new para to explain how the depression/anxiety affects your ability to do the disputed activities (possibly the need for prompting / you tend to self-neglect / left to yourself you wouldn't bother / stay in same clothes, etc, etc).
        Then start a new para to explain how the combination of arthritis and depression makes it even more difficult. Pain leading to depression, etc, etc.

        Include additional sheets as necessary.
 

       Look carefully at section 2.2 of the PIP assessment guide part 2 link poppy supplied. Be sure to explain if you can't do the activities "reliably", i.e to an acceptable standard, in a reasonable time period, repeatedly as required, safely.
That is really important. If you can't do a PIP activity reliably on the majority of days, you should not be assessed as able to do it. 



                 Funnily enough my father even pointed out a bunch of spelling mistakes in the written paragraph 

    What are you looking at ?  The decision letter, or the assessment report ?

    Assessments reports can be riddled with spelling and grammatical errors, which does indeed indicate the lack of due attention afforded to the report by the assessor.

SaitenMar

Alice_Holt said:

SaitenMar said:

Hi folks, 

One area which I struggled with when I original filled in the form was how to approach answering each question in relation to having to live with both arthritis and how that affects me, and how depression/anxiety affects me. I worry that I focused to much on one rather than the other and how the questions are outlined it's hard to get across mental health challenges in writing on these forms. Plus the fact that the assessor doesn't appear to have applied the same rules to every question as it states they should makes it even more difficult. Funnily enough my father even pointed out a bunch of spelling mistakes in the written paragraph, I know that's nothing major but it shows how little time they probably give to these claims. 

  Give full info on the MR. So....   
       
  ...Explain how the arthritis affects your ability to do the disputed activities (i.e takes a long time, need help with shoes & socks, etc / painful and you need to rest afterwards / couldn't repeat a task (as needed) because of pain / need to use clothes that are easier to put on - slip on shoes / etc, etc,
         Then start a new para to explain how the depression/anxiety affects your ability to do the disputed activities (possibly the need for prompting / you tend to self-neglect / left to yourself you wouldn't bother / stay in same clothes, etc, etc).
        Then start a new para to explain how the combination of arthritis and depression makes it even more difficult. Pain leading to depression, etc, etc.

        Include additional sheets as necessary.
 

       Look carefully at section 2.2 of the PIP assessment guide part 2 link poppy supplied. Be sure to explain if you can't do the activities "reliably", i.e to an acceptable standard, in a reasonable time period, repeatedly as required, safely.
That is really important. If you can't do a PIP activity reliably on the majority of days, you should not be assessed as able to do it. 



                 Funnily enough my father even pointed out a bunch of spelling mistakes in the written paragraph 

    What are you looking at ?  The decision letter, or the assessment report ?

    Assessments reports can be riddled with spelling and grammatical errors, which does indeed indicate the lack of due attention afforded to the report by the assessor.

Thanks again Alice, that gives me a good idea on how to approach the letter for sure. This might seem a stupid question but are they okay with it being all typed out on computer rather than written down with pen. I ask because I had really problems writing it down when I filled in the original form and it caused me a lot of pain, typing it is an easier process for me. 

And yes it was the assessment letter, a bunch of spelling mistakes. Doesn't look very professional I have to say. 
Thanks again for all your help.  

Spoonie_Turtle

They're fine with it typed, but do make sure to tell them the effect of writing by hand (it won't get you any points but helps paint an accurate and consistent picture).

My original decision letter in the 'reason for this decision' section was a wall of text in capitals, very little punctuation and incredibly difficult to read.

Alice_Holt

I think typing out a sheet (headed 'Grounds for appeal') is the best way to do it. Add your name & NI no.

It's legible, you can easily proof read and amend it, and you have a copy for your records.

As Spoonie says having a consistent picture is important.  Don't be afraid of repetition as you work you way through the disputed activities.

I.e  ' Due to my arthritis I have difficulty fastening buttons, zips,.....

       ' Due to my arthritis and the pain I experience I actually need assistance to prepare and cook a simple meal. I can't undo jars, I struggle to hold a knife to peel and chop food, I need to use a stick for support in the kitchen which I hold with my left hand, and am not safe manoeuvring hot pans, etc  (substitute your reality for my assumed examples).

    'Due to my depression I need prompting to take my medication regularly and safely.  A family member will remind me......If I did not have this help, then.....(give an example of forgetting to take medication wrong without help - if you have a recent ' ish one)'.'

    
    'Due to my depression, anxiety, and poor mental health I need prompting to manage my finances and check my bank accounts and bills.  A family member will help me.......If I did not have this help, then due to depression I would not bother...(give an example of things going wrong without help - if you have a recent ' ish one)'

SaitenMar

Hello, sorry to bother you all again but I need some help on clarifying some areas I'm still not sure about. A lot of the information and guides sometimes seem to contradict each other. So I'd appreciate some idea on how to approach this. 

First off is Mixing with other people:
I did previously make mention of anxiety and panic attacks I had suffered in the past when in social situations and how I needed calming etc but from what I can read it isn't worth mentioning this as it's not taken into account. So I'm leaning more to not mentioning this in my letter. 

Secondly is Planning and following a journey: 
The more I read about how this is looked at the more confused I get. A lot of sites offering help seem to focus on when it was called Going Out (such as the Citizen's Advice guide) and they seem to be two very differently judged activities. So whilst I need help to follow a journey in case I get lost or hurt myself (especially if it's an unfamiliar place), this doesn't seem to be an accepted criteria. So do I simply pick You can plan how to get somewhere, and find your way there, without any help. Even if this isn't exactly the case for me, yes I can plan a journey but finding my way to a location requires the help of my parents or family and due to anxiety I have had panic attacks at locations I'm not comfortable with or familiar enough with. That's not to mention that when I've gone through a depressive episode I don't like going out at all. I'm confused by the criteria. 


One other thing I wanted to ask, so I'm using the PIP Mandatory Reconsideration Request Letter Tool on AdviceNow but I'm wondering if this is worth doing or is even the right thing to do. Should I instead just fill out the DWP disagree with decision form I've downloaded and fill that it? 

Thanks again for all the help. This is such a confusing and difficult process and I'll admit I'm struggling to get my head around it. There seems to be so many niggling issues to figure out.