Seller increases asking price after 10 months when they have caused the delay in exchange!

Thrugelmir

TripleH said:

The only issue I have is that they turned up unannounced on a Sunday morning with 2 young children. It feels they were emotionally blackmailing you into not refusing them entry which is wrong.

If they had phoned before and asked to come, I would have been happy to accomodate even at maybe a slightly earlier time than I'd liked.

I'd happily play along with their story for the girls benefit, it's the boundary pushing aspect I object to.

Give an an inch they'll take a mile..........

brasso

lookstraightahead said:

brasso said:

lookstraightahead said:

Skiddaw1 said:

GDB2222 said:

BV88 said:

GDB2222 said:

BV88 said:

GDB2222 said:

lookstraightahead said:

JReacher1 said:

lookstraightahead said:

JReacher1 said:

It’s annoying but house prices have risen in the last ten months by around 10% so something that was valued at £464k in April 2021 is probably worth closely to £500k now. So I can sort of see why they want more money. 

Look at it this way, if the housing market had crashes in the last 10 months I assume you would want to renegotiate now and offer less. I think you need to treat this purely as a financial business transaction and take the emotion out of it. 

I would be tempted to get HSBC to value it again and see if they now think it’s worth more than £464k

Don't agree with this I think it would be valued at less if anything.

And I wouldn't buy from them either , because they're likely to wait another ten months.

so from a financial transaction perspective, they're a waste of time money and effort. From a moral perspective, they're not someone I would now choose to buy from (just wouldn't rest easy with me).

Why would this house be the one house that loses value in the last 10 months? That goes against what is seen in the current housing market. 

Not seen by me. Not seen by lots of people in fact. We don't have the last ten months up to date data as it's always behind. 

Can you imagine every vendor doing this - making people wait ten months to increase the price. Anyway, op seems very level headed.

Nobody made the OP wait. He chose to buy from someone who was not yet in a position to proceed. 

When people make offers, the agents vet them and make sure that they are in a position to proceed. Buyers need to do the same thing with their sellers, or suffer the consequences. 

How, dare I ask, do you propose to vet sellers ability to proceed? Should I ask to
interview them, perhaps get their consent for a lie detector test? Vendors can say whatever they like about how motivated they are to sell, they can say they will go to rented, live with family etc. there is no way to verify that and no obligation for them to do so.

In fact the only reliable method of assessing motivation to sell with such little access to information is do they have a pulse or not! Maybe I should specify that with the EA in my new search. It’s easy with hindsight but how an earth was I know they would

mess me about for 10 months? It would be a very small pool of potential properties available to me if I limited my search to only those without an onward purchase.  

Granted after the first time they pulled out of their purchase that was the signal to act on. If we had been in the U.K. and able to view properties we would have moved on. We stayed with it because we were the other side of the Atlantic and not thrilled about making offers on properties we had not seen in person. Unlike our vendors we don’t want to waste peoples time.

Most comments on this thread have had differing opinions but on the whole very helpful and surprisingly insightful to the situation (or funny!), until now… remind me never to go for a drink with you, I couldn’t suffer the consequences… 

I always managed to find out what position the sellers were in when I bought. These are not unreasonable questions for BOTH parties to ask each other, and a seller who gets past their initial surprise realises that this means I am a serious buyer.

It seems to have worked for me, as I have never been in your unenviable position. 

You don't think I asked what situation the sellers were in? Of course I did, it is usually the first thing I ask the EA at a viewing. I got told 'They are looking to sell because they want to live near their children and grandchildren, that they are keen as they have put it off for over a year due to COVID'. 

Ok, seems reasonable, onto the viewing...

I am still puzzled how think you I had 'chosen to buy from someone who is not yet in a position to proceed'. That is only evident with the benefit of hindsight. 

"they want to live near their children and grandchildren" - that would have put me off, as it sounds like they haven't yet found anywhere that they are keen to offer on.

"they have put it off for over a year due to COVID" - translates as haven't even started looking yet.

Plus, they are looking in a different area of the country, so they may not be very quick finding somewhere, as it involves lots of travel for viewings.

Did you ask exactly where they are looking, then compare house prices in the two areas? Did you ask what they are looking for? Are they going to be able to afford a decent property in the new area? 

Most people are so polite, and take the chance that something like this will happen. 

Of course, if you had asked hard questions, that could have put these particular sellers off. 

In all honesty, if our last set of buyers had interrogated us to that degree I'd have told them to take a running jump.

I'm with the OP. He did all he reasonably could do to ensure the sellers were serious.

Which is fine if you don't mind losing a prospective sale.

The point is that you risk losing the sale if you infuriate your vendors, and you’re likely to do that by asking them intrusive questions about where and why they’re moving, and what their budget is. Even if they bit their lip and gave answers to these questions, they could say anything they wanted. What are you proposing: that you make them swear in front of a judge that they’re telling the truth? It’s a balancing act, and we have to trust the EA to play their part. It’s their job to gauge the credibility and good faith of both buyer and seller, and are much better placed than the buyer to assess the seller's bonafides. That’s what the OP did here, and it looks like the EA did his/her job. Unfortunately the vendors have (it seems) simply deceived them, or at best have turned out to be hesitant and unreliable.

Infuriate your vendors? Who is the person spending the money here? Who is the customer? If a vendor gets infuriated because a buyer is willing to give them hundreds of thousands based on a few questions then they need to question whether they really want to sell.

A buyer had no idea about the EA, the EA is acting for the vendor. Although I have to confess the EA our vendor used knew all too well what info we expected from our vendor when we bought earlier this year.  We knew exactly why they were moving, where they wanted to buy, the situation of their vendor, the deadlines. Wouldn't have bought otherwise.

They weren't infuriated, at all. They were savvy people who wanted to actually sell.

Yes, infuriate your vendors. Or at least, irritate them. If your vendors and your estate agent are very nice, transparent people (as our current ones are) then you've little risk of seriously annoying them. If they suspect (even wrongly) that you're asking new questions to try to delay the sale, or asking things that are answerable with online searches, then they can (wrongly, again) conclude that you're not serious buyers and will opt instead for an alternative offer from an investor who didn't much care about the extension next door or the proposed new estate being planned round the corner. Yes, this was an experience we had. There's nothing at all wrong with asking vendors reasonable questions about their plans and the progress of their search but in a very difficult market for buyers, you have to keep gauging what's reasonable and what may be regarded as annoying. If you really love the house you're offering on, you may decide it's worth reining in some of the more intrusive questions.

lookstraightahead

brasso said:

lookstraightahead said:

brasso said:

lookstraightahead said:

Skiddaw1 said:

GDB2222 said:

BV88 said:

GDB2222 said:

BV88 said:

GDB2222 said:

lookstraightahead said:

JReacher1 said:

lookstraightahead said:

JReacher1 said:

It’s annoying but house prices have risen in the last ten months by around 10% so something that was valued at £464k in April 2021 is probably worth closely to £500k now. So I can sort of see why they want more money. 

Look at it this way, if the housing market had crashes in the last 10 months I assume you would want to renegotiate now and offer less. I think you need to treat this purely as a financial business transaction and take the emotion out of it. 

I would be tempted to get HSBC to value it again and see if they now think it’s worth more than £464k

Don't agree with this I think it would be valued at less if anything.

And I wouldn't buy from them either , because they're likely to wait another ten months.

so from a financial transaction perspective, they're a waste of time money and effort. From a moral perspective, they're not someone I would now choose to buy from (just wouldn't rest easy with me).

Why would this house be the one house that loses value in the last 10 months? That goes against what is seen in the current housing market. 

Not seen by me. Not seen by lots of people in fact. We don't have the last ten months up to date data as it's always behind. 

Can you imagine every vendor doing this - making people wait ten months to increase the price. Anyway, op seems very level headed.

Nobody made the OP wait. He chose to buy from someone who was not yet in a position to proceed. 

When people make offers, the agents vet them and make sure that they are in a position to proceed. Buyers need to do the same thing with their sellers, or suffer the consequences. 

How, dare I ask, do you propose to vet sellers ability to proceed? Should I ask to
interview them, perhaps get their consent for a lie detector test? Vendors can say whatever they like about how motivated they are to sell, they can say they will go to rented, live with family etc. there is no way to verify that and no obligation for them to do so.

In fact the only reliable method of assessing motivation to sell with such little access to information is do they have a pulse or not! Maybe I should specify that with the EA in my new search. It’s easy with hindsight but how an earth was I know they would

mess me about for 10 months? It would be a very small pool of potential properties available to me if I limited my search to only those without an onward purchase.  

Granted after the first time they pulled out of their purchase that was the signal to act on. If we had been in the U.K. and able to view properties we would have moved on. We stayed with it because we were the other side of the Atlantic and not thrilled about making offers on properties we had not seen in person. Unlike our vendors we don’t want to waste peoples time.

Most comments on this thread have had differing opinions but on the whole very helpful and surprisingly insightful to the situation (or funny!), until now… remind me never to go for a drink with you, I couldn’t suffer the consequences… 

I always managed to find out what position the sellers were in when I bought. These are not unreasonable questions for BOTH parties to ask each other, and a seller who gets past their initial surprise realises that this means I am a serious buyer.

It seems to have worked for me, as I have never been in your unenviable position. 

You don't think I asked what situation the sellers were in? Of course I did, it is usually the first thing I ask the EA at a viewing. I got told 'They are looking to sell because they want to live near their children and grandchildren, that they are keen as they have put it off for over a year due to COVID'. 

Ok, seems reasonable, onto the viewing...

I am still puzzled how think you I had 'chosen to buy from someone who is not yet in a position to proceed'. That is only evident with the benefit of hindsight. 

"they want to live near their children and grandchildren" - that would have put me off, as it sounds like they haven't yet found anywhere that they are keen to offer on.

"they have put it off for over a year due to COVID" - translates as haven't even started looking yet.

Plus, they are looking in a different area of the country, so they may not be very quick finding somewhere, as it involves lots of travel for viewings.

Did you ask exactly where they are looking, then compare house prices in the two areas? Did you ask what they are looking for? Are they going to be able to afford a decent property in the new area? 

Most people are so polite, and take the chance that something like this will happen. 

Of course, if you had asked hard questions, that could have put these particular sellers off. 

In all honesty, if our last set of buyers had interrogated us to that degree I'd have told them to take a running jump.

I'm with the OP. He did all he reasonably could do to ensure the sellers were serious.

Which is fine if you don't mind losing a prospective sale.

The point is that you risk losing the sale if you infuriate your vendors, and you’re likely to do that by asking them intrusive questions about where and why they’re moving, and what their budget is. Even if they bit their lip and gave answers to these questions, they could say anything they wanted. What are you proposing: that you make them swear in front of a judge that they’re telling the truth? It’s a balancing act, and we have to trust the EA to play their part. It’s their job to gauge the credibility and good faith of both buyer and seller, and are much better placed than the buyer to assess the seller's bonafides. That’s what the OP did here, and it looks like the EA did his/her job. Unfortunately the vendors have (it seems) simply deceived them, or at best have turned out to be hesitant and unreliable.

Infuriate your vendors? Who is the person spending the money here? Who is the customer? If a vendor gets infuriated because a buyer is willing to give them hundreds of thousands based on a few questions then they need to question whether they really want to sell.

A buyer had no idea about the EA, the EA is acting for the vendor. Although I have to confess the EA our vendor used knew all too well what info we expected from our vendor when we bought earlier this year.  We knew exactly why they were moving, where they wanted to buy, the situation of their vendor, the deadlines. Wouldn't have bought otherwise.

They weren't infuriated, at all. They were savvy people who wanted to actually sell.

Yes, infuriate your vendors. Or at least, irritate them. If your vendors and your estate agent are very nice, transparent people (as our current ones are) then you've little risk of seriously annoying them. If they suspect (even wrongly) that you're asking new questions to try to delay the sale, or asking things that are answerable with online searches, then they can (wrongly, again) conclude that you're not serious buyers and will opt instead for an alternative offer from an investor who didn't much care about the extension next door or the proposed new estate being planned round the corner. Yes, this was an experience we had. There's nothing at all wrong with asking vendors reasonable questions about their plans and the progress of their search but in a very difficult market for buyers, you have to keep gauging what's reasonable and what may be regarded as annoying. If you really love the house you're offering on, you may decide it's worth reining in some of the more intrusive questions.

Irrespective of market conditions I can't see myself ever spending hundreds of thousands of pounds without having all of my questions answered, just because the vendor will get irritated and decide not to sell to me. To be honest, it's never really crossed my mind as a buyer or a seller before now. Sounds like your other vendor was a bit irrational rather than it being the norm. 

gettingtheresometime

JJR45 said:

GDB2222 said:!

I originally wrote :

the OP  ... chose to buy from someone who was not yet in a position to proceed. 

Bit of an oxymoron, as no seller is in a position to proceed until they have sold.

That is why estate agents in a lot of cases only allow viewings when a buyer has sold their house.
Offers on houses, by buyers, who have not sold are very rarely accepted.

So not sure how you could classify any seller as proceedable, as they all need to get an accepted offer on another house, and they can't do that until they have sold their own.

I'm seriously thinking of moving & went to a view a house, even though my home isn't even on the market yet.

however given its location I'd strongly wager that it would sell within the week & be for over the asking price

BV88

billy2shots said:

Any developments on this OP?

Yes, we decided a few days ago to pull out of the sale completely. We had moved on from this property and did not want our continued commitment to jeopardise any future purchase. The sale was with the largest estate agent in our area by some distance and we thought we may be disadvantaged if something else came up with them.

The EA was very understanding and confirmed we made the right decision, they are skeptical that the vendor will ever sell. Turns out they drew straws for who would call us as they were so embarrassed by the vendors actions which were against their advice. The EA also disclosed that they tried, without success, to get the vendor to accompany their request for a price increase with a commitment to complete within 4 weeks, which the vendor flatly refused.  Our decision was immediately vindicated as the EA raised another property coming up shortly we may be interested in which they had not communicated to us previously.

The market where we are, a coastal town that has seen large price increases since COVID but is certainly not commutable from London, seems to have cooled down considerably. Practically all properties over 500,000 are un-sold with those over 600,000 having multiple reductions. When we called the local EA's in early 2021 it was a case of 'Just look at Rightmove, we don't have time to call all interested parties'. We have called around the EA's again and the tone has completely changed, now they are chasing our business rather than blowing us off...

We pulled out a few days ago and the property has not come back on either Rightmove or the EA website (where it is still showing as SSTC at the original asking price). The EA thinks they will struggle to achieve the new desired price with more competition and the original marketing price still being available on the internet to anyone that cares to do a 2 minute google search.

Honestly we feel in someways this has been a blessing in disguise, it kept us out of the crazy bidding wars and gives us another bite of the cherry now that things (where we are at least) seem to have calmed down considerably from the peak of the work from home induced mania. The EA even told us they have Londoners that are looking to sell to move back within commutable distance to London as their employers expect them back a few days per week, a daily commute is not really possible and would probably cost 200+ for a peak return on the train.

Local salaries cannot support house prices even at 350 - 400k and most of the money that comes into the town is from retirees looking to downsize into a bungalow so we are well placed to begin our search anew for detached family homes in the area. We are not due to move back permanently from the USA until early 2024.

Funnily enough I was telling a friend here, who is a real estate agent, about this situation, they found it absolutely unbelievable. Here, once you have made an offer both parties are contractually committed with penalties to withdraw unless for a material purpose such as major issues with the survey. She was telling us that if you want to offer the seller flexibility you could offer them 45 day closing instead of 30. Makes our 300 days and counting seem a bit of a joke!

billy2shots

BV88 said:

billy2shots said:

Any developments on this OP?

Yes, we decided a few days ago to pull out of the sale completely. We had moved on from this property and did not want our continued commitment to jeopardise any future purchase. The sale was with the largest estate agent in our area by some distance and we thought we may be disadvantaged if something else came up with them.

The EA was very understanding and confirmed we made the right decision, they are skeptical that the vendor will ever sell. Turns out they drew straws for who would call us as they were so embarrassed by the vendors actions which were against their advice. The EA also disclosed that they tried, without success, to get the vendor to accompany their request for a price increase with a commitment to complete within 4 weeks, which the vendor flatly refused.  Our decision was immediately vindicated as the EA raised another property coming up shortly we may be interested in which they had not communicated to us previously.

The market where we are, a coastal town that has seen large price increases since COVID but is certainly not commutable from London, seems to have cooled down considerably. Practically all properties over 500,000 are un-sold with those over 600,000 having multiple reductions. When we called the local EA's in early 2021 it was a case of 'Just look at Rightmove, we don't have time to call all interested parties'. We have called around the EA's again and the tone has completely changed, now they are chasing our business rather than blowing us off...

We pulled out a few days ago and the property has not come back on either Rightmove or the EA website (where it is still showing as SSTC at the original asking price). The EA thinks they will struggle to achieve the new desired price with more competition and the original marketing price still being available on the internet to anyone that cares to do a 2 minute google search.

Honestly we feel in someways this has been a blessing in disguise, it kept us out of the crazy bidding wars and gives us another bite of the cherry now that things (where we are at least) seem to have calmed down considerably from the peak of the work from home induced mania. The EA even told us they have Londoners that are looking to sell to move back within commutable distance to London as their employers expect them back a few days per week, a daily commute is not really possible and would probably cost 200+ for a peak return on the train.

Local salaries cannot support house prices even at 350 - 400k and most of the money that comes into the town is from retirees looking to downsize into a bungalow so we are well placed to begin our search anew for detached family homes in the area. We are not due to move back permanently from the USA until early 2024.

Funnily enough I was telling a friend here, who is a real estate agent, about this situation, they found it absolutely unbelievable. Here, once you have made an offer both parties are contractually committed with penalties to withdraw unless for a material purpose such as major issues with the survey. She was telling us that if you want to offer the seller flexibility you could offer them 45 day closing instead of 30. Makes our 300 days and counting seem a bit of a joke!

Sounds like a positive step to me. Hopefully you find something even better. 
Life has a funny way of working out sometimes. 

Flugelhorn

Thanks for the update @BV88 all sounds as though it may work out for the best - I chuckled at the thought of the EA drawing straws to see who should phone you, bet they will be glad if the property stays off the market now.

I did wonder whether the mass escape to country from the cities would actually start to reverse - there was a lot of "we could live anywhere" but actually that might not remain the case for all 

caprikid1

"The only issue I have is that they turned up unannounced on a Sunday morning with 2 young children. It feels they were emotionally blackmailing you into not refusing them entry which is wrong."

If this was me in the negotiating process I would have been really pleased, as soon as the children and dollies chose their bedroom they were absolutely commited, no chipping on price !, the dollies would be devastated if the sale did not go through !.

TripleH

It's the unannounced bit that vexes. You could have had a farewell house party the previous night, be nursing horrible hangovers and your mate Big Sweaty Geoff could be passed out sans clothes on the living room floor, with his tattoo on full display...

No problem the little girls coming unannounced, it's the 'we're buying this place so should get able to turn up as and when we want without notice' attitude, would they be the same to their buyer?

It's still not legally your house until you exchange (I know that isn't the case, but a legal commitment is harder to unpick).

lookstraightahead

BV88 said:

billy2shots said:

Any developments on this OP?

Yes, we decided a few days ago to pull out of the sale completely. We had moved on from this property and did not want our continued commitment to jeopardise any future purchase. The sale was with the largest estate agent in our area by some distance and we thought we may be disadvantaged if something else came up with them.

The EA was very understanding and confirmed we made the right decision, they are skeptical that the vendor will ever sell. Turns out they drew straws for who would call us as they were so embarrassed by the vendors actions which were against their advice. The EA also disclosed that they tried, without success, to get the vendor to accompany their request for a price increase with a commitment to complete within 4 weeks, which the vendor flatly refused.  Our decision was immediately vindicated as the EA raised another property coming up shortly we may be interested in which they had not communicated to us previously.

The market where we are, a coastal town that has seen large price increases since COVID but is certainly not commutable from London, seems to have cooled down considerably. Practically all properties over 500,000 are un-sold with those over 600,000 having multiple reductions. When we called the local EA's in early 2021 it was a case of 'Just look at Rightmove, we don't have time to call all interested parties'. We have called around the EA's again and the tone has completely changed, now they are chasing our business rather than blowing us off...

We pulled out a few days ago and the property has not come back on either Rightmove or the EA website (where it is still showing as SSTC at the original asking price). The EA thinks they will struggle to achieve the new desired price with more competition and the original marketing price still being available on the internet to anyone that cares to do a 2 minute google search.

Honestly we feel in someways this has been a blessing in disguise, it kept us out of the crazy bidding wars and gives us another bite of the cherry now that things (where we are at least) seem to have calmed down considerably from the peak of the work from home induced mania. The EA even told us they have Londoners that are looking to sell to move back within commutable distance to London as their employers expect them back a few days per week, a daily commute is not really possible and would probably cost 200+ for a peak return on the train.

Local salaries cannot support house prices even at 350 - 400k and most of the money that comes into the town is from retirees looking to downsize into a bungalow so we are well placed to begin our search anew for detached family homes in the area. We are not due to move back permanently from the USA until early 2024.

Funnily enough I was telling a friend here, who is a real estate agent, about this situation, they found it absolutely unbelievable. Here, once you have made an offer both parties are contractually committed with penalties to withdraw unless for a material purpose such as major issues with the survey. She was telling us that if you want to offer the seller flexibility you could offer them 45 day closing instead of 30. Makes our 300 days and counting seem a bit of a joke!

What a level headed approach and I also think things are cooling, along with those who thought they could earn a London salary yet work from home.

Good luck op - in this case I don't think the vendor is likely to put themselves out to move and sounds like a way for them to entertain themselves. 

Thank you for the update.