£1500 Laptop - Now faulty 13 months after purchase

Manxman_in_exile

bris said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

I wouldn't pay for a repair myself until I'd done all the above...

Of course I'm not a lawyer so I don't know if my understanding of the position is right or not - but I don't see how it would be reasonable to accept an expensive laptop packing up after 13 months - if the OP has done nothing to break it.

But thats the whole point, people use them in different ways. The laptop could be running 24 7 mining crypto coins (very popular nowadays), an electrical surge could have fried a component, a drop or water could have driped on it unnoticed, along with numerous other reasons so the manufacturer or retailer can demand this report to rule out user fault.

Liquid damage is usually the suspect. I have spilt drinks over my keyboard numerous times but been lucky so far.

Well yes.  All that might have happened.  But I'm accepting the OP's word that they haven't dropped, damaged or misused it any way.  I prefer to assume they are telling the truth and that, for example, they might have noticed spilling a liquid on it.

And if the OP has been running it 24/7 mining crypto currency (although I'm assuming they haven't as I would class that as misuse) so what?  Do HP issue a warning that you shouldn't do that?

And yes - an electrical surge could have fried a component.

But why does any of that mean that the OP's first recourse would not be to complain to HP under their statutory rights?  What have they got to lose by doing so?

Remember, the OP has come here for advice because HP told him it's no longer under warranty.  What he should have done straight away is to point out to HP that he's exercising his consumer rights, not any rights under their warranty.

What the nature of the fault is does not affect what he should do next.  I agree the nature of the fault might determine the outcome of the OP's complaint - but it isn't a reason not to complain to HP if the alternative is paying for a repair himself if it is out of warranty.

Carrot007

Manxman_in_exile said:

Well yes.  All that might have happened.  But I'm accepting the OP's word that they haven't dropped, damaged or misused it any way.  I prefer to assume they are telling the truth and that, for example, they might have noticed spilling a liquid on it.

You would prefer they wasted their time by only answering ther questiuon they asked rrather than trying to do root cause analysis.

That describes pretty much everything wrong with support these days. Do the mimimum required and get out as quick as possible.

Manxman_in_exile

Phantom151 said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

But wouldn't the OP still be following exactly the course I have suggested?  So far all that has happened is that HP have said it's out of warranty - the OP so far as I know hasn't told them he's claiming under the legislation.  (That's why he's come here asking what to do).

When he tells them that, there is a possibility (albeit faint) that HP might accept it's an inherent fault and give him a remedy anyway.  If they don't accept it, he can then decide whether to go down the route of getting an independent report or not.

In my view, so long as the independent report says that there is no evidence of the OP having caused the damage, then it would be up to HP to demonstrate that it wasn't an inherent fault.  I think they would find that very difficult to do if there is no evidence that the OP caused the fault.

I don't see that the nature of the fault affects what action the OP takes.  Whatever the nature of the fault he shouldn't be paying to have a 13 month old laptop repaired.  (It might affect the outcome but it doesn't affect what the OP needs to do - ie challenge HP under the legislation).

What I don't understand from yesterday is that several posters seemed to be suggesting that because HP had told the OP that it was out of warranty, that therefore the OP should consider paying for a repair himself.  WHAT? 

I don't think anybody had spelled out for him to go down the route of the Consumer Rights Act.  (Although I'm happy to be correctd on that point.)

If memory serves, it is up to the OP to prove that the fault lies with HP after 6 months. It will have to be an expert report. That is why I suggest it comes down to costs. Which is cheaper? No point in winnng the argument if the report is more costly than a fix would've been.

Does the legislation say that or does it say something subtly different?

If for instance the legislation says something like any fault arising in the first 6 months is deemed to have been present at the time of purchase, does that mean that what you say above is necessarily correct?  I'm not sure a court would be prevented from concluding that a fault manifesting itself after 6 months had also been present at the time of purchase without having to rely on an expert report.

In any case it doesn't alter my main point.  The OP's first action should be to go back to HP and explain that he is not relying on their warranty -  he is relying on his stautory rights.  The nature of the fault doesn't really affect that, although it may affect the outcome.  If HP's response is to say he needs to get a report to confirm that the faullt was likely present at the time of sale, the OP can decide whether or not to cross that bridge when he gets to it.

Safe'n'Sound

Hi everyone,

Sorry, I've been away from the internet since my last post and wow it's escalated a bit!

I've skimmed through most of the responses and will read them all properly after posting this. I just wanted to reply with an answer to a lot of questions about the actual fault. One of the fans has started making an incredibly loud screaming noise. It is so loud, I can't use it in public and even using it on my own forces me to wear noise cancelling earphones (I can still hear it with those on). If I was to explain the level, it's about the same as someone 2meters in front of you talking very loudly at different pitches (depending on fan speed).

So it's a hardware fault and has just started a few days ago.

Edit - Just to add info on usage, which someone has mentioned. The laptop has been lightly used and I'd expect any clock to show a far below average usage for this type of laptop.

Phantom151

Manxman_in_exile said:

Phantom151 said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

But wouldn't the OP still be following exactly the course I have suggested?  So far all that has happened is that HP have said it's out of warranty - the OP so far as I know hasn't told them he's claiming under the legislation.  (That's why he's come here asking what to do).

When he tells them that, there is a possibility (albeit faint) that HP might accept it's an inherent fault and give him a remedy anyway.  If they don't accept it, he can then decide whether to go down the route of getting an independent report or not.

In my view, so long as the independent report says that there is no evidence of the OP having caused the damage, then it would be up to HP to demonstrate that it wasn't an inherent fault.  I think they would find that very difficult to do if there is no evidence that the OP caused the fault.

I don't see that the nature of the fault affects what action the OP takes.  Whatever the nature of the fault he shouldn't be paying to have a 13 month old laptop repaired.  (It might affect the outcome but it doesn't affect what the OP needs to do - ie challenge HP under the legislation).

What I don't understand from yesterday is that several posters seemed to be suggesting that because HP had told the OP that it was out of warranty, that therefore the OP should consider paying for a repair himself.  WHAT? 

I don't think anybody had spelled out for him to go down the route of the Consumer Rights Act.  (Although I'm happy to be correctd on that point.)

If memory serves, it is up to the OP to prove that the fault lies with HP after 6 months. It will have to be an expert report. That is why I suggest it comes down to costs. Which is cheaper? No point in winnng the argument if the report is more costly than a fix would've been.

Does the legislation say that or does it say something subtly different?

If for instance the legislation says something like any fault arising in the first 6 months is deemed to have been present at the time of purchase, does that mean that what you say above is necessarily correct?  I'm not sure a court would be prevented from concluding that a fault manifesting itself after 6 months had also been present at the time of purchase without having to rely on an expert report.

In any case it doesn't alter my main point.  The OP's first action should be to go back to HP and explain that he is not relying on their warranty -  he is relying on his stautory rights.  The nature of the fault doesn't really affect that, although it may affect the outcome.  If HP's response is to say he needs to get a report to confirm that the faullt was likely present at the time of sale, the OP can decide whether or not to cross that bridge when he gets to it.

This is from Which?:

If a defect develops after the first six months, the burden is on you to prove that the product was faulty at the time the goods were delivered to you.

In practice, this may require some form of expert report, opinion or evidence of similar problems or defects across the product range.

The OP can state they are relying on their statutory rights until they are blue in the face. All HP have to say is "prove that the fault was there at the point of sale" as you acknowledge in the final paragraph.

What this comes down to is whether the repair is going to cost less than an expert report. It is different ifthere are loads of complaints about the same issue on the same model though.

Alderbank

Safe'n'Sound said:

One of the fans has started making an incredibly loud screaming noise. It is so loud, I can't use it in public and even using it on my own forces me to wear noise cancelling earphones (I can still hear it with those on). If I was to explain the level, it's about the same as someone 2meters in front of you talking very loudly at different pitches (depending on fan speed).

So it's a hardware fault and has just started a few days ago.

Interesting.
It could be a bearing failure. That would be an intrinsic fault but those fan bearings, although cheap, usually last for ever.
My guess is that a tiny bit of detritus has been sucked into a ventilation slot and attached itself to the fan.
Take it to your local repair guy for a report. He will open it up while you wait if he is not too busy. Either you will get your report saying the fan bearing has failed prematurely or alternatively he will just remove the bit of detritus with a pair of tweezers and charge you a tenner.

MattMattMattUK

Safe'n'Sound said:

Hi everyone,

Sorry, I've been away from the internet since my last post and wow it's escalated a bit!

I've skimmed through most of the responses and will read them all properly after posting this. I just wanted to reply with an answer to a lot of questions about the actual fault. One of the fans has started making an incredibly loud screaming noise. It is so loud, I can't use it in public and even using it on my own forces me to wear noise cancelling earphones (I can still hear it with those on). If I was to explain the level, it's about the same as someone 2meters in front of you talking very loudly at different pitches (depending on fan speed).

So it's a hardware fault and has just started a few days ago.

Edit - Just to add info on usage, which someone has mentioned. The laptop has been lightly used and I'd expect any clock to show a far below average usage for this type of laptop.

I would guess that as it was not there from the start it is either a bearing failure in the fan, which although rare, can happen, a foreign object has been ingested into the fan. Either way the fans for most HP laptops can be bought as spares for around £15-40 and are almost always easily replaceable. A reasonably competent person or any computer repair shop will be able to replace that part, they would also be able to confirm if it was user damage (foreign object ingestion) or inherent fault, but either way, the laptop will be fixed and the problem resolved for a similar amount to the courier costs of sending the laptop back.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Manxman_in_exile said:

Phantom151 said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

But wouldn't the OP still be following exactly the course I have suggested?  So far all that has happened is that HP have said it's out of warranty - the OP so far as I know hasn't told them he's claiming under the legislation.  (That's why he's come here asking what to do).

When he tells them that, there is a possibility (albeit faint) that HP might accept it's an inherent fault and give him a remedy anyway.  If they don't accept it, he can then decide whether to go down the route of getting an independent report or not.

In my view, so long as the independent report says that there is no evidence of the OP having caused the damage, then it would be up to HP to demonstrate that it wasn't an inherent fault.  I think they would find that very difficult to do if there is no evidence that the OP caused the fault.

I don't see that the nature of the fault affects what action the OP takes.  Whatever the nature of the fault he shouldn't be paying to have a 13 month old laptop repaired.  (It might affect the outcome but it doesn't affect what the OP needs to do - ie challenge HP under the legislation).

What I don't understand from yesterday is that several posters seemed to be suggesting that because HP had told the OP that it was out of warranty, that therefore the OP should consider paying for a repair himself.  WHAT? 

I don't think anybody had spelled out for him to go down the route of the Consumer Rights Act.  (Although I'm happy to be correctd on that point.)

If memory serves, it is up to the OP to prove that the fault lies with HP after 6 months. It will have to be an expert report. That is why I suggest it comes down to costs. Which is cheaper? No point in winnng the argument if the report is more costly than a fix would've been.

Does the legislation say that or does it say something subtly different?

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/19/enacted

For the purposes of subsections (3)(b) and (c) and (4), goods which do not conform to the contract at any time within the period of six months beginning with the day on which the goods were delivered to the consumer must be taken not to have conformed to it on that day.

(15)Subsection (14) does not apply if—

(a)it is established that the goods did conform to the contract on that day, or

(b)its application is incompatible with the nature of the goods or with how they fail to conform to the contract.

(3 b c and 4 are rights to replace/replace, final right to reject/price reduction)

So you are sort of correct in what you are saying, the consumer in the first instance needs to convince the trader they are due a remedy, a well written complaint may achieve this, a letter before action may do also*. If that fails then in the second instance the consumer needs to convince the small claim process that on the balance of probability they are due a remedy. 

*In the same way it's mentioned above the consumer may need to consider paying the cost of repair if it's cheaper (or easier) than getting a report the retailer also likely needs to consider whether it worth the risk the consumer isn't bluffing with their threat of small claims and the cost of actually defending regardless of what evidence the consumer actually has. 

An independent report is often suggested because of the reasons exampled for the laptop above but if there was a situation where the goods not conforming was obvious there wouldn't be a need for a report.

For example if you buy a pair of Nike trainers but are sent Adidas and were complaining 7 months later this doesn't need to be proved as it's apparent (although maybe you'd need to prove the Adidas is what the trader actually sent, I'm just too lazy to think of a better example).

I would imagine retailers are actually happy with this idea of obtaining a report, they might have to cover the cost of a report from time to time but I'd bet they know most people simply won't bother and as a result most complaints, particularly for lower value items, just go away meaning they suffer no cost at all (not that there is anything wrong with this).

Safe'n'Sound

Latest info...

I thought I would update you all on my decision. Firstly, I am not someone who backs down from anything, especially if I know I am in the right. I looked at the options and the probability of HP making life difficult for me getting this sorted. I certainly was not worried about the fault getting checked and a report carried out as I knew I was not at fault. The main issue I had was the time and initial cost involved. I want my laptop to be back to normal in the shortest amount of time, incurring the least amount of cost.

I looked on the HP website, on the support page. The page which allowed me to enter my serial number in, to see my warrantee had expired, also had an area where you can buy an extra year guarantee. I clicked it thinking it would chuck me out as having an expired warrantee. Well, it actually allowed my purchase and I have another full year cover (everything included) for £81. I was surprised it let me do it, but it's done now and I have a copy of the contract.

I just thought it was the easiest option. I will report the problem soon, they will collect it and then return when the fault is fixed. I expect it is a simple fan replacement but now I'm also covered for another 12months, in case anything else happens. £81, I'm fine with that option.

Thanks again for all the varied views given. I totally understand both sides of the argument. I think if the laptop was something I did not need for a while, I would have taken it as far as possible. Anyway, I have attained more knowledge if required in the future and I appreciate that.

Thanks again.

prowla

Safe'n'Sound said:

Hi everyone,

Sorry, I've been away from the internet since my last post and wow it's escalated a bit!

I've skimmed through most of the responses and will read them all properly after posting this. I just wanted to reply with an answer to a lot of questions about the actual fault. One of the fans has started making an incredibly loud screaming noise. It is so loud, I can't use it in public and even using it on my own forces me to wear noise cancelling earphones (I can still hear it with those on). If I was to explain the level, it's about the same as someone 2meters in front of you talking very loudly at different pitches (depending on fan speed).

So it's a hardware fault and has just started a few days ago.

Edit - Just to add info on usage, which someone has mentioned. The laptop has been lightly used and I'd expect any clock to show a far below average usage for this type of laptop.

Great that you came back and clarified.

My opinion (only my opinion!) is that it is unlikely to be a product fault, unless you do a search and find lots of reported cases (in which case my opinion is demonstrably wrong!), but there''s no harm in getting them to have a look.

A fan should be a replaceable part and inexpensive (I've replaced them on machines); their job is to suck air through the machine and they can get clogged up with stuff, eg. if you always wear your favourite mohair cardigan when using your laptop.

When I was working on data centre systems, one supplier would do a test for metal "whiskers" before they would sell you a system, as its fans could suck up detritus from the floor!

I'm not defending the laptop supplier; just pointing out that apparently normal use can cause hardware issues.

Either way - hope you get it sorted!