Limited time and Grace Period defence

NorfolkNewboy

On Saturday 22 Jan I received a PCN issued on 12 Jan. It offered me a reduced tariff of £60 if I paid (or appealed) within 14 days of issue. Is there a way of extending this period, as effectively 4 days is far too short?

My defence will be one of considering whether to park or not: they are quoting a gap of 21 minutes between arrival and departure.
I believe that the sign said "£1.50 for one hour between [6am & 9am: this may not be correct times] and £1.50 for one hour between [5pm & 8pm: also possibly incorrect]. My car was there at lunch time.
Beneath that it said "£3 for whole day".
I wasn't within the specific times mentioned AND I didn't want to stay longer then one hour. I considered that I may be allowed to stay foc for that short length of time.

A phone number was available for clarifying the situation but there was no public telephone available. I didn't have a mobile.

I am sure there was a sign at the entrance to the carpark stating "One hour for £1.50; all day for £3" owtte, so had only taken £1.50 to the machine.
On returning to the car I was unable to find sufficient extra cash and considered departing when another vehicle arrived.
I returned to the pay machine to see if the occupants had local knowledge to clarify this situation or a mobile phone but they didn't. After a brief discussion relating to the ambiguity of the notice we all decided to depart.

Allowing for the time for old folk to prepare for a walk on the beach on a cold windy January and then to remove that protection, is 21 minutes an unreasonable "grace period" (or "observation period" as stated by BPA)?

Does this fall within the "mitigating circumstances" defence which I am told is not satisfactory?

Thank you for any advice.

Coupon-mad

Is it Norfolk's finest ex-clampers, NPE?  All over the local press.  Horrible firm.

 It offered me a reduced tariff of £60 if I paid (or appealed) within 14 days of issue. Is there a way of extending this period, as effectively 4 days is far too short?

Why would you do that?  No there is not and it's not a fine.

You aren't planning to pay and can't win an appeal as the system is (by all accounts) a biased kangaroo court.  It's run by the parking trade body - i.e. the PPCs themselves, and 96% of appeals lose.  Who would have thought?!

The very fact you are talking about the '14 day discount bribe' like it actually matters, tells us that you haven't read (or properly read) the NEWBIES PLEASE READ THESE FAQS FIRST announcement thread at the top of the forum.

My signature shows under every reply I make and tells everyone how to get there from any page.  Two clicks back.

fisherjim

My defence will be one of considering whether to park or not: they are quoting a gap of 21 minutes between arrival and departure.
I believe that the sign said "£1.50 for one hour between [6am & 9am: this may not be correct times] and £1.50 for one hour between [5pm & 8pm: also possibly incorrect]. My car was there at lunch time.
Beneath that it said "£3 for whole day".

I wasn't within the specific times mentioned AND I didn't want to stay longer then one hour. I considered that I may be allowed to stay foc for that short length of time.

Sorry none of that will be a defence, and never ever assume anything in a private car park, and FOC isn't a term you will find on many signs. You needed to pay £3 like it or not or leave immediately.

However you are now in the greedy clutches of a nasty PPC who's only plan is to get their hands on you cash, the confusing signage only adds cash to their scam.

You need to get up to speed with the newbies thread as you are in it for the long haul now

NorfolkNewboy

This forum was a great help in successfully fighting a PCN from ParkingEye back in 2018. Since then I have forgotten most of the routines.

This current PCN from CPM (IPC member?) arrived on 22nd Jan for an offence logged as 6th Jan. Does that fall outside the "14 day" rule for no windscreen ticket? HOW would I prove that was the day it was delivered, if necessary?

Whilst I can see little chance of winning an appeal before a kangaroo court, I have no desire to be in it for the long haul. The PE matter required several hours of reading through threads on this forum (and other linked items), copying, pasting, re-arranging, tweaking to my situation etc. As an OAP I found that quite stressful despite being assured that I would win as I had a "golden ticket" with an issue date over 20 days after the parking date. Although I hate to be defeatist, I suspect I may just capitulate!

Thanks for your help.

Fruitcake

It is not an offence.
There is no 14 day rule.
If a PPC wants to invoke keeper liability in accordance with the PoFA 2012, then the NTK must arrive by day 14 where no NTD has been issued. The date of the alleged event is day zero.

Whilst the NTK may have arrived outside the 14 day period for keeper liability to apply, the problem for you is that both the PoFA and the Interpretation Act assume a letter will arrive two working days after it is posted. 
Unless you can somehow prove the NTK arrived on the 22nd, and not the 14th, or first working day afterwards, you will not be able to prove it arrived too late for the keeper to be liable.

Just go with the standard appeal in blue text from the NEWBIES, then read up on what to do if/when it is rejected.

What happened when the keeper complained to the landowner? Have they also complained to their MP yet?

NorfolkNewboy

The landowner (Seaview Car Park, West Runton) has supplied a detailed rebuttal of my claims including high quality CCTV photos which clearly nullify much of my defence.

They advise appealing to CPM, which I will do.

Fruitcake

Which CPM? I can think of at least three.

If it is an IPC member then the BPA CoP is irrelevant.

Coupon-mad

NorfolkNewboy said:

The landowner (Seaview Car Park, West Runton) has supplied a detailed rebuttal of my claims including high quality CCTV photos which clearly nullify much of my defence.

Can you show us that (redacting your numberplate)?  Most unusual for a landowner to do that.

NorfolkNewboy

RESPONSE:

Firstly I would like to clarify we make or receive no financial gain from any charges by CPM. We can therefore be honest and advise where necessary, and where necessary the CCTV system we have installed helps to iron out any issues that very rarely arises.

Fortunately, the CCTV we have installed, has helped with this issue. The stills I have attached. You stated you had no phone to call for clarification. This is simply not true. Please find attached the stills of you actually photographing the machine. So you did have a telephone at hand. Whilst I can see you pressing buttons on the machine, at no time was any money paid or attempted to pay into the machine. We can see you arriving at the park, parking on the right hand side facing the sea, after  a while you exited your car, and ventured to the pay machine. The lady with you duly got out and put her coat on, and was reading the large sign at the exit of the car park. After a short while you met your wife at the sign, and after a  short conversation, walked back to your car, you removed you coat, the lady removed her own coat, this is clearly shown on CCTV. You then exited the park. 

The charge of £1.50 is only available at set times of the day. This is not only shown on all the large signs around the park but also  on the machine itself. I have attached a picture of the signs that do indeed clearly state the times that the reduced charge is available, and also the charge for a full day. The signs, machines etc have been installed over 2 years now and information is available not only on the park itself but also on the website, we have nothing to hide. The signs are certainly not ambiguous or confusing. We have even gone to the lengths of installing an instruction guide next to the machine, again a large sign and easily read. On entering and leaving the car park, you have to drive past a minimum of three large signs and a payment machine, all stating the same information.

The daily charge of £ 3.00 has been in force for over 5 years now, again always advertised as this. We are not a warden controlled car park and during the season, when the hut is manned,  it would impossible to have a reduced charge available all day, it is a pay on entry car park and has been for over 50 years.

During the Winter months, there is a ten minute grace period, allowing time to park, pay for your stay, or if you do not want to pay, leave the park.  As the car park is reduced in size during this time, the allotted time is ample. The clock stops either when you leave or if you have paid for the day, when the car park closes for the evening, so there is, was, sufficient time to make a decision.

The machine not only takes cash but debit card, credit card, Apple Pay, Android Pay, you can pay by app on a mobile device or even pay after your visit when you get home, by telephone, as long as the daily charge has been paid. 

We have tried to cover every eventuality and given every opportunity to pay for a stay at Seaview Car Park. Unfortunately I cannot revoke or cancel any charge given by CPM , this can only be done by using their appeals process or alternatively the Independent Appeals Process they have in place. The charge listed is for £60.00 if paid promptly. 

As the CCTV has shown, in this instance we cannot help you with the charge, correctly issued by CPM. May I advise you use their appeals process for your claim.



I have rewritten my defense as "no mobile phone reception"

Coupon-mad

Defence?  You are not defending a court claim (yet).

Personally, I don't see you can possibly win at appeal though.  The landowner really does demolish your case and even says you could have paid afterwards, at home that same day.  Not that the sign tells you that but I really don't see you winning an appeal, nor in court.  You could have paid £3.

Sorry...just how I see it.

NorfolkNewboy

Yes, I agree.
However, I shall appeal stating that the time between arrival and departure was spent entirely on trying to understand the requirements regarding the hourly charge AND trying to arrange to park there: what has been called "observation time" and which should carry no time limit.
It is probably going to represent an expensive "not a day out" for my wife's 70th birthday.