Attic: what actually counts as "a conversion" and what is just "improvement"?

Mark_Michalowski

Hi everyone!

This is my first post to the forum, so hopefully I don't make a dog's dinner of it all

I'm in the process of sellng my 3-bed semi in Leeds. The buyers have brought up the issue of my not having a "regularisation certificate" for the third bedroom, the attic, which has had me in a right old panic.

When I bought the house, 24 years ago, the attic was already (to the best of my understanding) a "habitable room": there was a proper staircase, the floor was fully boarded, there was a skylight and a gable end window and a pendant light fitting and the headroom was fine. The only documents I can find from the time of the purchase list the house as "3-bedroomed" with no mention of any "attic conversion" having taken place. I used the attic as a study for about five years before I decided to "do it up": I had the floor area extended into the eaves (not right to the very edges, but about three feet on either side), the ceiling taken down and reboarded higher than it had been, and six Velux windows and a radiator installed. I can't find any documentation or receipts (other than a Velux window receipt) dating back to then (yes, I know - poor record-keeping on my part...)

The current potential buyers are now getting cold feet - and are asking for a £3,000+ reduction (on their offer price of £187,500, after already getting a reduction from the price they offered of £200,000 because of mortgage downvaluation) - because there is no evidence of building regulations having been satisfied.

The style of the existing, proper staircase indicates that the attic was made "a habitable room" either at the time of construction (1909, I think) or shortly after - but I have no way of proving that. All they're seeing, I think, is the fact that it's been modernised and had Veluxes added.

Do I need to get some sort of survey done now to confirm that the attic has never been "converted" - only improved? Or does the work I had done 19 years ago actually count as a "conversion", even though there's been no alteration to the roofline, no actual construction (other than extending the floorboards outwards, the Veluxes and the replastering)?

I hope this all makes sense - please feel free to ask for any other info

thanks in advance

Markxx

FaceHead

Just say to your buyer that the attic has been a habitable room since before your ownership of the house, and you therefore have no records before that. They can do what they like with that information. You don't get any surveys done: they have to collect their own information and make their own decisions. 

They are just fishing for money off as they've probably over offered, and/or the bank isn't lending them what they want. If they don't like it, they can do one (lose their solicitor and survey fees) and you can go onto the next buyer who might not be so stretched that they are so sensitive to a down valuation. 

Buyers should only offer what they can pay, and lack of paperwork on something 30+ years old (could it be pre-1985 when modern building regs came in?) is an excuse, not a reason to modify an offer. 

Mark_Michalowski

Thank you so much for your quick reply, FaceHead

Yes, I think you're right - but unfortunately (for me!) I'm in a chain with buying a new house that I really love; and if I dig my heels in too hard and am too inflexible, they may well just do one (LOL) and I'll lose the house I'm buying and be (almost) back to the start with any new buyers.

One option that's occurred to me is to grit my teeth and pay for a surveyor to come and take a look and tell me whether the attic is part of the original construction or not. Probably not an expensive survey, though, and if it satisfies my buyers it'll more than have paid for itself.

This whole house-moving malarkey is even more stressful than everyone says, isn't it? LOL

thanks again

Mxx

Doozergirl

Were there windows in it before? 

It may well be existing, but the fact that you've 'extended' it into the eaves does raise a question mark as to whether this constitues further conversion work.  It certainly triggers building control
again with the windows, and with insulation because you substantially removed the plaster to the existing room, plus extended it.  That also begs the question of whether the extended area needs the floor strengthening, even if the existing room
was initially exempt by means of predating the Building Act.  
 

Mark_Michalowski

Cheers Doozergirl!

Good points, thanks. I've spoken to my ex who remembers that, at the time, we wondered whether building regs would need to be involved, but that the builder assured us that the work they were doing was minimal enough not to have to involve them. But, of course, they may have been wrong - either accidentally or deliberately... ;-)

There was a single skylight (as well as the gable-end window) that was replaced with a Velux, and then another five Veluxes installed around it. The roof was insulated with the silver foil-covered insulation that seemed like something from NASA at the time!

Mxx

Doozergirl

Yeah, that stuff isn't good by itself but at the time is was sold as some kind of miracle. 

I think it's safe to say that you're probably
not where you need to be with regs, but it's all a game of calling each other's bluff. 

You've probably already made a decision about further compromise on that £3k? 

rob7475

It sounds like they're trying it on for some more money off. They're lender may want an additional survey on the attic to ensure its suitable as a bedroom. The buyer needs to pay for that though. They may ask for an indemnity policy to cover it which shouldn't cost you much and your solicitor will be able to arrange. In reality, indemnity policies are pretty worthless - it's like an extra little earner for the solicitors :-)

Mark_Michalowski

Doozergirl said:

You've probably already made a decision about further compromise on that £3k? 

Not yet, because the buyers had an electrical survey done which - to no one's surprise - said the house needed rewiring. That's fine, I expected that. As the surveyor blokes left the house, I asked how much a rewire would cost and they said "About three and a half grand".

When the buyers got back to me, they claimed that a rewire would cost SIX GRAND! When we asked to see the quote they claimed they'd been given, they sent a photo of a page from the survey - but no actual quotation for the rewire - and said: "We have taken off the price the electrical costs will amount to, for that particular house (ages and style)" - which, to me, says they've found a page on the internet that gives general prices for rewiring and picked the highest they could find. I suspect they did ask the electrical survey people for a quote, got a figure closer to £3,500, and decided it wasn't high enough for them!!

Out of interest, just to get a feel for how much rewiring a 3-bed semi costs, I spent a pleasant couple of hours on the interwebs, collecting 18 different estimates from different electrical contractors. They all stated a "low" price, an "average" price and a "high" price. I averaged all 18 "average" prices and got a figure of £4,037. Even the average of the "high" prices was only £4,628 - so £6,000 is really pushing it.

The buyers even had the cheek to add: "We have been advised this may be even more expensive than the figure we have taken off depending on what remedial work will need doing for this type of property."

As rob7475 says: "It sounds like they're trying it on for some more money off". Indeed.

My estate agent has asked them to obtain a quotation from the people who did the survey - y'know, the actual ones who've looked at the house and who they clearly trust to conduct the survey itself. I suspect they'll find a way to wriggle out of it....

If it weren't for the fact that I'm worried about losing the house I've offered on, and that this feels like it's going on forever and is starting to drag me down (especially in the middle of winter) then I would, as FaceHead said earlier, tell them to "Do one!".

Much as I'll probably hate myself for it, I can see myself - to some degree or other - giving in to them just to get it all over and done with. At least I'll have the consolation of being in my new home

Mxx

bris

Have you had your own electrical survey done? Get an EICR for about £100 and never take a buyers word for anything.

Mark_Michalowski

I haven't, bris - but I know that the house hasn't been rewired for aaaages, so I've no argument with it needing to be done. It's just the (claimed) cost of it that's the problem.

£3,000-£4,000 - fine, no problem.

£6,000? On yer bike! LOL

Mxx

twopenny

Oh I had similar when I sold my house.
Unsubstantiated claims, constant surveys then a last minute demand for 10,000 off the price. As i rejected that it became 5,000.
As soon as I said it was going on the market again they backtracked and wanted an instant exchange.
There are forums which advise on how to get more money off a seller and they're very smug.
They've had their surveys and got 3,000 off which should cover any further sign offs or work. And it's a sellers market at the moment.
I bet they know you are in a chain and you have somewhere you want so are using that to their advantage. It's not difficult to find that out.
As said, you need to call their bluff. Tell your agent that you are putting it back on the market at the original price.
If they genuinely withdraw then have your ducks in a row and get whatever permissions sorted asap and have the house on the market at the original price in the meantime.